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Author Topic: I like what I've read (mostly)  (Read 12660 times)

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Scrybe

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I like what I've read (mostly)
« on: July 12, 2006, 07:14:49 PM »

I'm not sure what I hope to get out of these forums, or what I can contribute, but here is my best guess.  I am heavily inclined to believe most of what Mr. Smith is professing because I have been naturally bending that way myself for years.  But I'm not without reservation either.  So I suppose I am here to 'kick the tires' a bit.  Changing doctrinal suppositions has so many ramifications, so it's with much prayer and testing that I approach these ideas.  I don't want to be seduced by winds of doctrine simply because they tickle my ear.  And let me tell you, this stuff does.  I LOVE the idea that eternal separation from God is not an option.  I LOVE trusting God so much that you can attribute evil to Him without diminishing Him or His love.

I was raised in the Assembly of God denomination, and currently attend a Foursquare church.  I've grappled with their ideas of free will and hell and evil, and never been comfortable with their answers.  On the other hand, I've never experienced the kind of people that Mr. Smith talks so much about.  Those who love the idea of sinners being eternally tortured.  Those who say we must pay tithe.  Every Christian I've ever known has found the idea of hell tragic- not something to celebrate.  But that's beside the point.  What I have encountered is a lot of legalism and holier-than-thou attitudes.  (Though not at my current church.)  This spirit infected me in H.S. and hounded me for a long time.  I was the perfect straight arrow, never drank or did drugs, I was in a ministry band and wrote lots of lyrics about God.  I stayed in this mentality until my tragic divorce.  My wife of 10 years suddenly became addicted to drugs and ran off for days at a time.  Then weeks, then months.  I tried for a couple years to make it work because I know God hates divorce.  But no matter what I did, she kept going down her path.  We have two young boys and she almost got custody of them during the hardest, darkest time in my life.  Praise God, He delivered them from that catastrophe.  (She often had them at her crack-dealer's house.) It was in that process that I began to realize that God was working powerfully in me through the pain.  I pressed into Him as hard as I could.  I discovered that the pain was necessary to strip me of my legalistic attitude, and the idea that my strength would get me through.  It was then I realized that our Christian walk is not part us / part God… No it's ALL God.  We have no right to be prideful about ANYTHING in our lives.  We didn't choose God, He chose us.  Once I realized this, it really put a crimp in the whole free-will thing.  And made the idea of hell even more unbearable.  I read some Calvinist stuff and it made a lot more sense to me than the stuff I was raised on, but hell still didn't make sense.  Even so, the Bible talks about hell a lot, so I figured I just had to trust and obey. 

Needless to say, Mr. Smith's exposition on hell and its etymology was a joyous thing for me to discover.  But now I have this dilemma which we all face when making spiritual decisions: who do I believe?  After all, many men, much smarter than I and Mr. Smith have thought about this stuff for a long time, and our traditional doctrines are the result.  There are thousands of linguists who have studied and interpreted the Bible and the idea of hell and free-will still exist.  Now those things can be explained by saying that their hearts are darkened and their eyes blinded.  But the biggest hurdle for me to overcome is the testimony of the body of believers that surround me.  My church, my parents, my pastor, and my favorite author, C.S. Lewis, all exude love, and demonstrate the transformative power of God in their lives and writing.  If I am to believe that they are all blinded fools than how can I possible discount the testimony of their lives?

Or is there a continuum?  Are there more, and less enlightened people?  Of course there are.  Truth is not a switch that get's flipped and suddenly we know all.  Our lives are a continuous journey of discovering the beauty of God.  I feel pretty safe saying that no man has ever known Truth in all of its fullness.  (Save Christ.) 

And that is what brings me to the stickiest point in Mr. Smith's writings: the idea of leaving the church.  I've always known that modern evangel's eschatology was stupid, and Mr. Smith may be correct in asserting that the church is the Great Whore of Babylon.  But are we really called to leave our church?  To disassociate with those who have shared in our lives and ministered to us as we have ministered to them?  Does "Come out of her" mean that?  Or does "Come out of her" mean to drop her anti-Biblical ideas?  I know Mr. Smith is big on delineating the literal from the spiritual, so literally leaving a literal church seems to go against his other ideas. 

I'd love to hear what you all think about this.  There are a couple things I consider before taking anyone seriously.  First, do they come from love?  (Should be Yes.)  Second, do they honor and believe the scripture?  (Should be Yes.) And third, do they have new rules that they think everyone should follow?  (Should be NO!)  From what I've read, (All the articles, and some of the email/replies) it seems that Mr. Smith passes my personal tests, and I assume you do as well.

Well, I have a lot more to say, but I'll cut it off here for now.  Thanks for any input you all have.     
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hillsbororiver

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 07:42:14 PM »

Hello Scrybe and welcome to the forum.

That was a very well written introduction, my advice is if you do not feel the need at this time to leave your church, don't. What is more important than abandoning your seat in this church building is to seek His wisdom and His purpose for you spiritually as you go through your daily life. If He calls you to leave you will know without a doubt, continue to read the material on Bible Truths with your Bible open and (if you haven't already) download E-sword to verify the original Hebrew and Greek, it is an interesting journey brother and we are happy to have you among us.

His Peace to you and yours,

Joe 
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MG

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 08:02:26 PM »

Hi Scrybe,

God had to drag me away from the church. That was 15 years ago. I fought it tooth and nail. I knew without any doubt that he wanted me to leave. It took God a year to convince me that it was actually him wanting me to leave. I agree that you will know without a doubt if you are being called out of the church. We have a personal relationship with God and he will guide us on our path.

I have also struggled with my son's addiction for years and know first hand of the severe, intense pain that it causes. I have no doubt that God used that intense pain for his purpose in my life. God also, after years, began to heal my son a couple of weeks ago in a miraculous way. God made a believer out of my son and renewed my faith.

One of the hardest things I learned on my journey was that I can't even trust myself with my interpretation of the truth. I can only trust that God's will will be done in my life. I can count on him for that as I grope around in the dark. If I'm standing on a lie he will knock it out from under me.

I really appreciated your post and I'm glad you are here.

MG
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Scrybe

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 08:11:08 PM »



One of the hardest things I learned on my journey was that I can't even trust myself with my interpretation of the truth. I can only trust that God's will will be done in my life. I can count on him for that as I grope around in the dark. If I'm standing on a lie he will knock it out from under me.
Amen to that!


I saw a link to Ray's site on an anti catholic site that preached or taught hell and the link said something like "The christians hell does not exist" and I thought oh boy this ought to be real good!

Haha... I found the site while looking for lyrics to a band called Zao... Which I belive is Greek for Spiritual Life.



Thank you all for the warm welcome.  I just read through the Church thread and see other's with this line of thinking.  But I would love to talk more about the place of other Christians in the your lives.  They way some of you talk about them seams a bit… judgmental?  As I stated, I believe we are all (from Anton LeVay to me, to Mr. Smith, to Billy Grahm) on a continuum.  None of us are totally right about everything, and none of us are totally wrong about everything…. Well, maybe Mr. LeVay is.  But the fact that my pastor and parents are wrong about several key issues does not make them 'vomit', 'whores' or other pejoratives to which I should not return, does it?  I wouldn't call my parents and pastor "unbelievers" to which I should not be unequally yoked.  They believe that Jesus died for their sins.  They believe in God Who made and sustains the universe.  And they minister God's love to others. 

So how do you all view these people?  I understand a lot of you have had experience with so-called Christians who are in it for the money or the social aspects.  But most of the Christians I know are not like that at all.  Most of them are simply believing what they have been taught all their lives.  They are just like I was until recently… "If you can't believe the Church, who can you believe?"  And they are so used to 'wolves in sheep's clothing' that they won't listen to ideas contrary to what the Church teaches.  They have found God's grace in their lives and want to share that experience with others.  How can they be called 'unbelievers'? 

Please understand I'm not trying to challenge anything taught here, I sincerely want to know.
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love_magnified

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2006, 09:22:33 PM »

Quote
So how do you all view these people?  I understand a lot of you have had experience with so-called Christians who are in it for the money or the social aspects.  But most of the Christians I know are not like that at all.  Most of them are simply believing what they have been taught all their lives.  They are just like I was until recently… "If you can't believe the Church, who can you believe?"  And they are so used to 'wolves in sheep's clothing' that they won't listen to ideas contrary to what the Church teaches.  They have found God's grace in their lives and want to share that experience with others.  How can they be called 'unbelievers'? 

I view them with love. I was them too. But I can tell you from my own experience, many will kill you thinking they do a loving God's work. When I say "kill" I don't mean the physical sense. Nobody is going to haul you off and stone you (I least I doubt that). What I mean is that you will know what's behind the smile the moment you challenge a doctrine. Some people don't really know themselves. They might say "love" but within they are a cauldron of lava. Nobody at my former church did anything to harm me intentionally, but I started to see the bugs under the rocks when I challenged their doctrines. They are doing what they think is right. Many honestly believe that claiming that Christ will fulfill his commission without asking anyone's permission is blasphemous and horrible and worthy of cutting people out of their lives over. I'm just saying, be careful of who you assume is Christ's sheep. Many do not walk in love if you challenge them.
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love_magnified

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2006, 09:28:26 PM »

By the way, yes they do believe in Jesus. But which one? The one who will succeed? Or the one who will stand by and watch billions be tortured in literal fire? Which Jesus do they lift up for the world to see and worship?
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gmik

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2006, 09:38:32 PM »

hi.  Only 2 commandments to worry about---love God, love your neighbor.  Our friends, family and loved ones in church are where they are because of God.  Until He drags them they will stay that way and we are to love them at all cost.  I have said on many occassions that I go back to church to see my kids and when we have a birthday and go out to eat.  I ususally just read Ray's notes or my Bible when I am there.  This particular church has come out publically against this teaching and against Carlton Pearson (who was a frequent guest). The tithe is a really big issue and the pastors all live better than their average parishioner.

I have spoken to dear friends, thinking they would love this, and they got very angry that I would dare to think there was no hell and that even Hitler will be forgiven.  They don't want him forgiven. My friends don't mind that Bennie Henn is being audited and that his lifestyle is full of greed and avarice.  They don't care!  "I just give to the Lord, it is up to Bennie what he does with it!"
I guess I need some new friends!  I must love them and pray their eyes will open.

My eyes were blinded till last October. I still feel like I have lots to learn. Not only knowledge but in living the life that is pleasing the Father.

Sorry for rambling.  I like your spirit and honesty Scrybe. Enjoy the forum.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2006, 10:39:35 PM »

Who is Jesus speaking to here?

Are there doctrines of Satan being preached in the pulpit today?

Is the eternal torture of babies, children, the ignorant, the confused sound like the work of our Lord? Or His adversary?


Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

(They apparently are doing some good things)
 
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

(Man made doctrine?)
 
Rev 2:21  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

(Justification, excuses for pagan infiltration?)
 
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
 
Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
 
Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

(It appears doctrine has significant importance)

Remember;

Mat 10:37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 

Would any of us allow others to speak despicable things of our parents or spouses or family members? Would you allow your friends to call your loved one a torturer of children or the weak or infirm, would you still consider them friends and socialize with them?

These are not my words (except of course the ones in blue)

Joe


PS http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html


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YellowStone

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2006, 11:43:55 PM »

........So how do you all view these people?  I understand a lot of you have had experience with so-called Christians who are in it for the money or the social aspects.  But most of the Christians I know are not like that at all.  Most of them are simply believing what they have been taught all their lives.  They are just like I was until recently… "If you can't believe the Church, who can you believe?"  And they are so used to 'wolves in sheep's clothing' that they won't listen to ideas contrary to what the Church teaches.  They have found God's grace in their lives and want to share that experience with others.  How can they be called 'unbelievers'? 

Please understand I'm not trying to challenge anything taught here, I sincerely want to know.


Hi Scrybe :) I really enjoyed reading your introduction

One thing that I have learned since being here at Bible-Truths is that God does not love me any more than my worst enemy. Neither am I am less or any greater sinner than anyone else. Kind of scary, kind of sad, but this fact alone totally put things into perspective. I have had to change the way I look and categorize people. The people who tend churches are not evil, neither whores or wolves, they are God's children just like me. Sometimes, I question the preachers but I do not have to listen to them. I have enough trouble walking with God myself, but I do see and hear things differently now. Some well doers are mistaken in their belief and many seem to afraid to break free; such as these need love and prayer far more than condemnation. I read here a while back that, perhaps the greatest witness to God is not by word or deed. It just being yourself living your life; if God is walking with you, others will see. They will see and they will question. This is God working in you. It doesn't get much better than that.

Sorry for rambling :)

Lots of Love,

Darren
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 11:44:33 PM by YellowStone »
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orion77

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2006, 12:44:46 AM »

Hello Scrybe, welcome to the forum.

I live in eastern Kentucky and hence many hellfire preachers and churches that have been handed down through tradition.  My family and wifes family think I have lost my mind for not believing that God will not eternally torture sinners.  Although they are very good people and live good lives, I do not understand why I can see these things and they can't.  Truth is it should be the other way around, but who am I to question.  I must rely on the total soverignity of God and the faith He has given me, that the day will come they will know of these things too. 

I do not wish to speak any ill will towards them for what they believe, yet they speak ill will towards me for what I believe.  So, who's right and who's wrong?  Yet, I know they do not search and study the word of God as I do, not that makes me any better, because God knows I am not.  I still love them with all my heart and do my best not to argue. 

I've come to realize that the only things we can do is Love God with all our hearts, and our neighbors, too, and to forgive those who treat us wrongly.  Because, we know what the end result will be for all, it's only that few in each generation are being shown these things, but in the end every knee will bow.  Not that these churchgoers don't, but is there any way posssible for one to really know God, and in the same sentence say He will torture people forever.  Where is the love in that belief, for me, I just can't see it.  And if that is wrong, so be it.

God bless,

Gary
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Scrybe

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2006, 01:34:18 AM »

is there any way posssible for one to really know God, and in the same sentence say He will torture people forever. 

Well, I guess that's what I'm getting at.  I think a person can know God quite well, but because they have been told by others that they respect, others that show good fruit, that there is an aspect of God we can't understand.  And there is truth in that.  We can NOT understand God.  So it's not a big leap to say that He has a way to reconcile hell with His morality that we have no way of fathoming.  And I guess that's what I find so exhilarating about Ray's attitude of 'No contradiction'.  I've not spent enough time contemplating his ideas and studying the Bible to see for myself if it all proves out, but it's very different than how the church trains it's leaders.  We are all taught that there are apparent contradictions due to our lack of understanding.  So it is an act of humility to just accept these things.  That is how it has always been for me.  We have this enormous weight of 20 centuries momentum pushing us into these doctrines. 

So to love God, and walk with Him while misunderstanding Him is the condition of all Christians.  I agree that anyone who revels in the idea of hell is probably not close to God at all.  But there are those who are submitting to what they don't understand out of love for God. (Because they've  been told by very reputable folks and read in very reputable publications, in fact, read the very words about hell in the BIBLE, that it is the way it is.)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 01:36:42 AM by Scrybe »
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Joey Porter

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2006, 01:52:23 AM »

I think this is the trickiest part of the whole deal.  Looking at people's fruits, which by all accounts, seem to be genuine love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness, with no hypocrisy or envy, and yet, they believe erroneous doctrines.  How can they possibly exhibit all these fruits while walking in blindness and error?  I'm still trying to figure it all out myself.

I think someone above brought up a good point about people not really knowing themselves, what's in their heart. I know that's how I was.  What I thought was righteousness, I now see as nothing more than my own works of the flesh.  Sure, I could say that it was all the work of God, and I actually THOUGHT I believed it, but did I really believe it?  No.  Now I have a better understanding of God's sovereignty and my complete ineptitude.  Now that I see this, I can actually better analyze others and kind of see whether or not they may be deceiving themselves as I was.  But I'm not yet in any position to go about pulling specs out of people's eyes.  Yeah, I may have had my plank removed, but I still have too many weaknesses and honestly, too much cowardliness to go around showing others' their shortcomings.  People won't like that and I'll lose friends and create icky situations.  I know that all of that comes with the tribulation of entering the kingdom, but I confess that I'm not ready for all that yet, so I just have to wait for God to take care of things.

I believe this all relates to what Paul wrote somewhere (forgive me for being lazy and not looking up the scripture);  Paul wrote something to the effect of "In a house there are many items.  Some are precious stones and some are wood and stubble.  If a man cleanses himself of the latter, he will be equipped to do the works that God requires."  I'm sorry for the weak paraphrase, but hopefully you get the point.  I believe the first step is having our plank removed, and then comes the part of overcoming weaknesses of the flesh.  I can't very well go about pointing out others' weaknesses when I've still got a ton myself, otherwise I'd be nothing more than a hypocrite.  So I'd rather just confess to being a cowardly sinner and wait for God to do his thing;  I'd rather do that than go about being a hypocrite.

Sorry, I began rambling there.

Getting back on topic, sometimes I think it takes careful inspection and really what it all boils down to, is God-given discernment. It reminds me of when Jesus condemned the Pharisees for having the outside of the dish clean, but the inside was full of filth.  Many times, people will exhibit all these fruits, but if or when you begin to challenge or question their doctrines, you'll see the fangs start to come out a little bit.  And I'm not talking about pridefully or loudly rebuking them, I'm talking about just sticking to what you believe or have been shown.  Many times they won't take kindly to it, no matter how humbly or peacably you talk to them.

Also remember, many people of other religions and even atheists exhibit all kinds of admirable traits and qualities, such as selflessness, charity, humility, and so forth.  Even dirty minded, godless soldiers lay down their very lives for friends and country.  That's not to belittle them or take shots at them.  But it just goes to show how tricky it is to discern true acts of Godliness done in Truth, from great human acts that are not of God.  You'd think that dying for someone is verification of true humility and selflessness, and even Christ said that's the greatest love that someone could have.  But we know (from the Iraqi prisoner scandal a few years ago, amongst other things) that many or most of the soldiers who are dying for others are quite godless.  Again, this is not to condemn them, because I certainly appreciate their willingness to die for others, but in reality, it is nothing more than an act of the flesh, the beast.  It's hard to grasp and accept, but I believe it's true.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 01:53:49 AM by Joey Porter »
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orion77

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2006, 02:08:43 AM »

Scrybe, I understand what you are saying.  There was one sentence in your last post, that I don't agree with, you stated, that "we can not understand God".  Read more of Rays articles with your bible in hand and you will see that God, truly wants us to understand Him.


(Job 28:12)  But where shall wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding?

(Job 28:13)  Man does not know its value, nor is it found in the land of the living.

(Job 28:14)  The deep says, It is not in me; and the sea says, It is not with me.

(Job 28:15)  Pure gold cannot be given instead of it, and silver cannot be weighed as its price.

(Job 28:16)  It cannot be weighed against the gold of Ophir, against precious onyx, or sapphire;

(Job 28:17)  gold and crystal cannot be ranked with it, nor its exchange a vessel of fine gold.

(Job 28:18)  Coral and rock crystal cannot be mentioned; yea, the getting of wisdom is above jewels.

(Job 28:19)  The topaz of Ethiopia cannot be ranked with it; it cannot be weighed against pure gold.

(Job 28:20)  Where then does wisdom come from, and where is the place of understanding?

(Job 28:21)  Yea, it is hidden from the eyes of all living, and concealed from the birds of the heavens;

(Job 28:22)  the Place of Ruin and Death say, We have heard its fame with our ears.

(Job 28:23)  God knows its way, and He knows its place.

(Job 28:24)  For He looks to the ends of the earth, and sees under all the heavens;

(Job 28:25)  making a weight for the winds and measuring out the waters by measure.

(Job 28:26)  When He made a decree for the rain, and a way for the flash, the thunderclap,

(Job 28:27)  then He saw it, and declared it; He prepared it, and He also searched it out.

(Job 28:28)  And to man He said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom! And to turn from evil is understanding.


(Pro 3:3)  Mercy and truth will not forsake you, tie them on your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart,

(Pro 3:4)  and you shall find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

(Pro 3:5)  Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.

(Pro 3:6)  In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

(Pro 3:7)  Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Jehovah and depart from evil.


I have heard from many people that we can not know God or His word, but these are just things handed down that people take for granted.  Those words keep many from seeking Him.  Truth is, we can know Him and He is a rewarder of those who search for Him.

God bless,

Gary
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danagonzalez

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2006, 03:24:11 AM »

HI,Scrybe, I first want to welcome you to the forum, I'm new as well.  Your post is very good!  I believe it is a very important one.  I posted a question "Does Anyone Feel Like An Alien."  I stated that I've always felt like I didn't "fit in" and that something seemed to be sort of between me and the world.  I believe that "something" has been God.  He has not allowed me to "fit in'" because of His plans for me, as others have even stated in their replies.  When I stopped going to church about 4 mos. ago it wasn't because of Bible Truths.  I didn't know of BT at that time. I was just so tired of the way I didn't fit in.  I was very involved---choir, children's ministry on Wed. nights, children's missions, etc.  But, I never felt like I was one of them, I felt like an alien.  Just going through the motions and not feeling the way the others seemed to "feel." I've tried to get close to many, many women, but they just seemed to not notice.  They'd be friendly (in a shallow way), but then they would go on with their lives and the friendships they already had. It has been very discouraging and I've given up trying many times.  But, then it seems after a little" break" I start to get a desire to be around people again and that's what I am noticing now. Now I've been reading Ray's teachings and I'm seeing everything alot differently.  I believe that God is the One who directs my steps and has all along.  I believe He has a purpose for some of His chosen ones to be in the churches. I believe that He won't let me "fit in" and I can trust that because of my past experiences. I' ll give up, then He sends me back out there to be "me" some more.  I am different and He has given me strength through understanding so that now I can stop wanting to fit in and He can use me as a light.  Not a" mouth piece," but a light. I understand why I don't fit in now, so I can trust that God is with me and allow Him to get glory His way. Matt.5:16 LOVE DANA :)  God Bless You As You Search
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jerry

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2006, 05:32:55 AM »

scrybe: I beleave each person is at the level of undestanding that god put them in,I dont think its ever been the responsability of christians to seperate the sheep from the goats,what man actually thinks he has the wisdom to do that,,but to me its foolishness.Theres plenty of highminded people that want to do gods job for him,I think we should just wait and see before makeing judgements,God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy....................Jerry
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mongoose

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2006, 11:46:52 AM »

PS - Please also be patient with all of us here.  We are all works in progress and God isn't finished with us yet.  Would love to have you stay and learn with us.
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orion77

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2006, 12:27:19 PM »

PS - Please also be patient with all of us here.  We are all works in progress and God isn't finished with us yet.  Would love to have you stay and learn with us.


A big Amen to that!   ;D

Gary
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Harryfeat

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2006, 02:29:57 PM »

is there any way posssible for one to really know God, and in the same sentence say He will torture people forever. 

Well, I guess that's what I'm getting at.  I think a person can know God quite well, but because they have been told by others that they respect, others that show good fruit, that there is an aspect of God we can't understand.  And there is truth in that.  We can NOT understand God.  So it's not a big leap to say that He has a way to reconcile hell with His morality that we have no way of fathoming.  And I guess that's what I find so exhilarating about Ray's attitude of 'No contradiction'.  I've not spent enough time contemplating his ideas and studying the Bible to see for myself if it all proves out, but it's very different than how the church trains Our only saving grace is thait's leaders.  We are all taught that there are apparent contradictions due to our lack of understanding.  So it is an act of humility to just accept these things.  That is how it has always been for me.  We have this enormous weight of 20 centuries momentum pushing us into these doctrines. 

So to love God, and walk with Him while misunderstanding Him is the condition of all Christians.  I agree that anyone who revels in the idea of hell is probably not close to God at all.  But there are those who are submitting to what they don't understand out of love for God. (Because they've  been told by very reputable folks and read in very reputable publications, in fact, read the very words about hell in the BIBLE, that it is the way it is.)

Hello Scrybe and welcome to the forum. 

Please bare with me as I expose my own fruits.  :o  Seriously, I hope this doesn't come out too disjointed but there are a number of points I'd like to touch on so  please do bear with me.

I too believe that we are all at different stages along the same path to God.

Understanding God---I do not believe that we can ever totally understand God.  As an example. Joe wrote an excellent bio here.  I learned a lot about Joe but I do not totally understand him.  I learn more and more about Joe as I read his posts here at the forum.  Is it likely that with our carnal minds that the bible and all the written scripture in the entire universe will let us completely understand God.  I think not.  If I can't completely understand Joe how in the universe am I to understand God.

Agreement with Ray's teachings at bible-truths: A) I agree with everything Ray teaches. B) I don't agree with everything Ray teaches.  Am I still an unbeliever under scenario A or B?  How many people have computers or/and even know of BT:   If you didn't know of BT would you still be a member of a church.  Would you have changed many of your doctrinal beliefs.   

Existence of Hell's torture---As a child growing up Catholic, I was taught and believed with bulging eyes of frght that if I committed a sin [there wasn't much that wasn't a sin by the way], I would go to purgatory or hell if a mortal sin.  I believed that the resurrected body was physical and fire would hurt like it does now.

My view of hell changed in high school where I couldn't justify a religion based on fear of God when Christ taught the opposite.  My view of hell became " the abscence or distance from God.  I believed that being here in physical form was "hell'  since we are somehow insulated or isolated from Him  and that,  as in revelations,  if we were not in the book then we would be thrown into the lake of fire and cease to exist just like death.  I ceased all study of the bible and adopted the doctrine of Christ to love God and my neighbor and have tried to follow it since.

How can you be tortured if you have no physical body?  Would the lake of fire chastisement make you suffer remorse?  Could this lake of fire exist forever?  Ray says not.  What if it takes an eternity for us to know God and experience more and more of His love? Isn't an eternity of growing in His love something to look forward to?   If we know God completely and experience the full range of His love are we then god too?  Is that what it means for God to be All in All?

I also hope that one day soon the organized religions will wake up to Christ's commandments of love and give up on the religion of fear.  There is too much of the old testament overriding/overshadowing Christ's message. 

We must be ever mindful that our journey is in God's hands.  God's will be done.   

feat







 

« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 09:36:41 PM by Harryfeat »
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Ward

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Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2006, 09:12:23 PM »

Scrybe,

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Needless to say, Mr. Smith's exposition on hell and its etymology was a joyous thing for me to discover.  But now I have this dilemma which we all face when making spiritual decisions: who do I believe?

Earlier in your post you wrote, "It was then I realized that our Christian walk is not part us / part God… No it's ALL God."  I think that is your answer.  Whom/whatever you believe in currently is of God.  Your beliefs may change next month, but that too, will be of God.

Is Ray correct?  Are all the others that you mentioned correct?  Hmmm.... I'd say that the answer is Yes and Yes.  They are all correct for the place/point that they are each on.  Kind of like a path that we are each following.  Right now, on the path that God is walking me down, Ray is closer to the answer that is ultimately correct.  Ray has already been down the portion of the path that the "others" are currently on.

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And that is what brings me to the stickiest point in Mr. Smith's writings: the idea of leaving the church.  I've always known that modern evangel's eschatology was stupid, and Mr. Smith may be correct in asserting that the church is the Great Whore of Babylon.  But are we really called to leave our church?  To disassociate with those who have shared in our lives and ministered to us as we have ministered to them?  Does "Come out of her" mean that?  Or does "Come out of her" mean to drop her anti-Biblical ideas?  I know Mr. Smith is big on delineating the literal from the spiritual, so literally leaving a literal church seems to go against his other ideas.

Same answer....  And don't be surprised if you go thru this again and again.  I'm certain that God takes us each thru most (if not all) of the portions of our path multiple times.  Each time the experience may feel a little different because each time we are being taught more.  Each time God changes another aspect of our heart.

Scrybe, I'm very much a lurker at Bible-Truths.  I've been here for a couple of years and only recently posted anything.  When someone posts a question that's just one of those, "Oh Yeah!  I've wondered the samething," I get excited.  I keep checking back and reading the answers I see.  Measuring each response.  Noticing how answers that I thought were wrong a year ago may now seem right...

But every once in a while it happens... I get reminded that its not something I control What I think is right is only that way now because of the heart that I have now.  God has been working on it since that answer was wrong.  (I won't really be too surprised if the now right answer is wrong again in the future considering the fact that God is still working on my heart.)

I think that most of us are really asking for the "Ultimate Right Answer" to our questions.  But I don't think that any of us is really at the point in our path where the "Ultimate Right Answer" is right for us.  The answer that we go with today, is right for today.  Each new right answer results in some new experience that God wills for us to take.  Each experience teachs us something new(good or bad).

I've can't ever remember making a wrong choice.  It was right at that time in my life (God's path for me).  Almost all of them have proven to be wrong later on. BUT they were right for God's purpose.

Ward
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danagonzalez

  • Guest
Re: I like what I've read (mostly)
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2006, 10:19:10 PM »

Hey I like that Ward!!!Just go with His promptings, He knows what he's doing...We don't need to try to analyze every idea we have. Is it from God or not? doesn't need an answer. Just trust that He is in control and go ahead and do the "desires of your heart" He's doing something with each situatuion you are in.....Thanks WARD!!!!!!LOVE DANA :)
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