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Scrybe:
I'm not sure what I hope to get out of these forums, or what I can contribute, but here is my best guess.  I am heavily inclined to believe most of what Mr. Smith is professing because I have been naturally bending that way myself for years.  But I'm not without reservation either.  So I suppose I am here to 'kick the tires' a bit.  Changing doctrinal suppositions has so many ramifications, so it's with much prayer and testing that I approach these ideas.  I don't want to be seduced by winds of doctrine simply because they tickle my ear.  And let me tell you, this stuff does.  I LOVE the idea that eternal separation from God is not an option.  I LOVE trusting God so much that you can attribute evil to Him without diminishing Him or His love.

I was raised in the Assembly of God denomination, and currently attend a Foursquare church.  I've grappled with their ideas of free will and hell and evil, and never been comfortable with their answers.  On the other hand, I've never experienced the kind of people that Mr. Smith talks so much about.  Those who love the idea of sinners being eternally tortured.  Those who say we must pay tithe.  Every Christian I've ever known has found the idea of hell tragic- not something to celebrate.  But that's beside the point.  What I have encountered is a lot of legalism and holier-than-thou attitudes.  (Though not at my current church.)  This spirit infected me in H.S. and hounded me for a long time.  I was the perfect straight arrow, never drank or did drugs, I was in a ministry band and wrote lots of lyrics about God.  I stayed in this mentality until my tragic divorce.  My wife of 10 years suddenly became addicted to drugs and ran off for days at a time.  Then weeks, then months.  I tried for a couple years to make it work because I know God hates divorce.  But no matter what I did, she kept going down her path.  We have two young boys and she almost got custody of them during the hardest, darkest time in my life.  Praise God, He delivered them from that catastrophe.  (She often had them at her crack-dealer's house.) It was in that process that I began to realize that God was working powerfully in me through the pain.  I pressed into Him as hard as I could.  I discovered that the pain was necessary to strip me of my legalistic attitude, and the idea that my strength would get me through.  It was then I realized that our Christian walk is not part us / part God… No it's ALL God.  We have no right to be prideful about ANYTHING in our lives.  We didn't choose God, He chose us.  Once I realized this, it really put a crimp in the whole free-will thing.  And made the idea of hell even more unbearable.  I read some Calvinist stuff and it made a lot more sense to me than the stuff I was raised on, but hell still didn't make sense.  Even so, the Bible talks about hell a lot, so I figured I just had to trust and obey. 

Needless to say, Mr. Smith's exposition on hell and its etymology was a joyous thing for me to discover.  But now I have this dilemma which we all face when making spiritual decisions: who do I believe?  After all, many men, much smarter than I and Mr. Smith have thought about this stuff for a long time, and our traditional doctrines are the result.  There are thousands of linguists who have studied and interpreted the Bible and the idea of hell and free-will still exist.  Now those things can be explained by saying that their hearts are darkened and their eyes blinded.  But the biggest hurdle for me to overcome is the testimony of the body of believers that surround me.  My church, my parents, my pastor, and my favorite author, C.S. Lewis, all exude love, and demonstrate the transformative power of God in their lives and writing.  If I am to believe that they are all blinded fools than how can I possible discount the testimony of their lives?

Or is there a continuum?  Are there more, and less enlightened people?  Of course there are.  Truth is not a switch that get's flipped and suddenly we know all.  Our lives are a continuous journey of discovering the beauty of God.  I feel pretty safe saying that no man has ever known Truth in all of its fullness.  (Save Christ.) 

And that is what brings me to the stickiest point in Mr. Smith's writings: the idea of leaving the church.  I've always known that modern evangel's eschatology was stupid, and Mr. Smith may be correct in asserting that the church is the Great Whore of Babylon.  But are we really called to leave our church?  To disassociate with those who have shared in our lives and ministered to us as we have ministered to them?  Does "Come out of her" mean that?  Or does "Come out of her" mean to drop her anti-Biblical ideas?  I know Mr. Smith is big on delineating the literal from the spiritual, so literally leaving a literal church seems to go against his other ideas. 

I'd love to hear what you all think about this.  There are a couple things I consider before taking anyone seriously.  First, do they come from love?  (Should be Yes.)  Second, do they honor and believe the scripture?  (Should be Yes.) And third, do they have new rules that they think everyone should follow?  (Should be NO!)  From what I've read, (All the articles, and some of the email/replies) it seems that Mr. Smith passes my personal tests, and I assume you do as well.

Well, I have a lot more to say, but I'll cut it off here for now.  Thanks for any input you all have.     

hillsbororiver:
Hello Scrybe and welcome to the forum.

That was a very well written introduction, my advice is if you do not feel the need at this time to leave your church, don't. What is more important than abandoning your seat in this church building is to seek His wisdom and His purpose for you spiritually as you go through your daily life. If He calls you to leave you will know without a doubt, continue to read the material on Bible Truths with your Bible open and (if you haven't already) download E-sword to verify the original Hebrew and Greek, it is an interesting journey brother and we are happy to have you among us.

His Peace to you and yours,

Joe 

MG:
Hi Scrybe,

God had to drag me away from the church. That was 15 years ago. I fought it tooth and nail. I knew without any doubt that he wanted me to leave. It took God a year to convince me that it was actually him wanting me to leave. I agree that you will know without a doubt if you are being called out of the church. We have a personal relationship with God and he will guide us on our path.

I have also struggled with my son's addiction for years and know first hand of the severe, intense pain that it causes. I have no doubt that God used that intense pain for his purpose in my life. God also, after years, began to heal my son a couple of weeks ago in a miraculous way. God made a believer out of my son and renewed my faith.

One of the hardest things I learned on my journey was that I can't even trust myself with my interpretation of the truth. I can only trust that God's will will be done in my life. I can count on him for that as I grope around in the dark. If I'm standing on a lie he will knock it out from under me.

I really appreciated your post and I'm glad you are here.

MG

Scrybe:

--- Quote from: MG on July 12, 2006, 08:02:26 PM ---

One of the hardest things I learned on my journey was that I can't even trust myself with my interpretation of the truth. I can only trust that God's will will be done in my life. I can count on him for that as I grope around in the dark. If I'm standing on a lie he will knock it out from under me.

--- End quote ---
Amen to that!



--- Quote from: Bobbys43 on July 12, 2006, 08:02:26 PM ---I saw a link to Ray's site on an anti catholic site that preached or taught hell and the link said something like "The christians hell does not exist" and I thought oh boy this ought to be real good!
--- End quote ---

Haha... I found the site while looking for lyrics to a band called Zao... Which I belive is Greek for Spiritual Life.



Thank you all for the warm welcome.  I just read through the Church thread and see other's with this line of thinking.  But I would love to talk more about the place of other Christians in the your lives.  They way some of you talk about them seams a bit… judgmental?  As I stated, I believe we are all (from Anton LeVay to me, to Mr. Smith, to Billy Grahm) on a continuum.  None of us are totally right about everything, and none of us are totally wrong about everything…. Well, maybe Mr. LeVay is.  But the fact that my pastor and parents are wrong about several key issues does not make them 'vomit', 'whores' or other pejoratives to which I should not return, does it?  I wouldn't call my parents and pastor "unbelievers" to which I should not be unequally yoked.  They believe that Jesus died for their sins.  They believe in God Who made and sustains the universe.  And they minister God's love to others. 

So how do you all view these people?  I understand a lot of you have had experience with so-called Christians who are in it for the money or the social aspects.  But most of the Christians I know are not like that at all.  Most of them are simply believing what they have been taught all their lives.  They are just like I was until recently… "If you can't believe the Church, who can you believe?"  And they are so used to 'wolves in sheep's clothing' that they won't listen to ideas contrary to what the Church teaches.  They have found God's grace in their lives and want to share that experience with others.  How can they be called 'unbelievers'? 

Please understand I'm not trying to challenge anything taught here, I sincerely want to know.

love_magnified:

--- Quote ---So how do you all view these people?  I understand a lot of you have had experience with so-called Christians who are in it for the money or the social aspects.  But most of the Christians I know are not like that at all.  Most of them are simply believing what they have been taught all their lives.  They are just like I was until recently… "If you can't believe the Church, who can you believe?"  And they are so used to 'wolves in sheep's clothing' that they won't listen to ideas contrary to what the Church teaches.  They have found God's grace in their lives and want to share that experience with others.  How can they be called 'unbelievers'? 
--- End quote ---

I view them with love. I was them too. But I can tell you from my own experience, many will kill you thinking they do a loving God's work. When I say "kill" I don't mean the physical sense. Nobody is going to haul you off and stone you (I least I doubt that). What I mean is that you will know what's behind the smile the moment you challenge a doctrine. Some people don't really know themselves. They might say "love" but within they are a cauldron of lava. Nobody at my former church did anything to harm me intentionally, but I started to see the bugs under the rocks when I challenged their doctrines. They are doing what they think is right. Many honestly believe that claiming that Christ will fulfill his commission without asking anyone's permission is blasphemous and horrible and worthy of cutting people out of their lives over. I'm just saying, be careful of who you assume is Christ's sheep. Many do not walk in love if you challenge them.

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