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Author Topic: The salvation culmination  (Read 7137 times)

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Duane

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The salvation culmination
« on: October 23, 2011, 03:23:26 AM »

This is a quandary that I know I need guidance with:  (I am sure that someone can show me a "Ray article")

We know that WE don't choose God--He chooses US in His own Timing "drawing (dragging) us to Him".  John 13:18-20 et. al.

We know that the "Believer's Prayer" isn't found in the Bible nor eluded to as "THE way of attaining Salvation".

So...When a person shows a real, genuine interest in knowing/trusting God as Savior--at least the "Believer's Prayer" puts the persons' verbal intentions and true feelings toward self vs. God's redemption-- as an "event (turning point) of Salvation" reference point.  Such as a wedding ceremony marks a specific date of marriage.  I was saved at 7 years of age, married 10/6/90 for sure.

Without that--how do we ensure that the person is a new believer:  to his/her/our/God's satisfaction?
Do we even ask a person who is leaning toward God if he/she would like to become saved/a new believer/born-again/a child of God?
The "Believers Prayer" accomplished the above for me---now what?  Thank you, Duane

 P.S. I read and re-read Ray's article "Winning Souls For Jesus"  and I am still drawing a blank.
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newgene87

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2011, 08:23:00 AM »

I understand what you mean by the "believers prayer" and I think its when a pastor or minister (of Babylon) basically put magic words in your mouth to repeat and u just repeat then you're "saved" from HELL.  I believe coming from Truth, Romans 10:10-13 still embodies that prayer. "That by the heart, we believe and with the MOUTH confession is made to salvation" and where's the verse that says "no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit??" Or it at least somewhere near that. Based upon that Scripture, if we believe that scripture I think that is still applicable. But not used as a magic formula. Cause Faith is still a lifestyle . Throwing someone out that's all ;)
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River

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2011, 10:12:42 AM »

 Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?


1 Peter 1:7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ
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Rene

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2011, 12:03:22 PM »

(I am sure that someone can show me a "Ray article")

I was saved at 7 years of age, married 10/6/90 for sure.

Without that--how do we ensure that the person is a new believer:  to his/her/our/God's satisfaction?
Do we even ask a person who is leaning toward God if he/she would like to become saved/a new believer/born-again/a child of God?

P.S. I read and re-read Ray's article "Winning Souls For Jesus"  and I am still drawing a blank.


Hi Duane,

Here is an excerpt from the 2005 Nashville Conference.  I would highly suggest you listen to the audio and/or read the transcript in its entirety.  In addition, don't worry about ensuring that someone is a "new believer."  That is not your responsibility.  The Lord knows who belongs to Him. ;)

René

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

How Hard is Getting Saved?

Acts 2:21 MKJV
21 And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Am I denying that scripture? No, I’m not denying that scripture. What I’m saying is Christendom doesn’t know what that scripture means. Maybe many of you don’t know what that scripture means. But I’m here to tell you that if you do call upon the name of the Lord, you shall be saved. Notice, it is in the future tense. It doesn’t say you “have been” saved: if you believe you “have been already” saved. You’ll read that in my new paper too (Fools, Hypocrites, Snakes). I’ve talked about this already but here I bring it all out, I show you every scripture…there is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive. You know that? There is no such thing as “being saved” in the past tense, while you are still alive.

There’s a reason why Christ says, “They’ll hate you and persecute you and everything, but he that endures until the END has “already been” saved….no, you endure to the end and then you SHALL be saved.” You are not saved, unless and until, we come up in the first resurrection. That is the only proof that anyone will have that they are saved, if you come up in the first resurrection. If you don’t, then you are not saved; it’s just axiomatic, if you don’t come up in that resurrection.

Read more....
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 12:12:55 PM by Rene »
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newgene87

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2011, 12:17:09 PM »

Oh I love it. So we are not "saved" how we've always been taught. "We are 'saved' IN HOPE, and a hope that is not seen or beheld...and then we through 'continuance' expect or wait for" (Romans 8:24-25). And that continuance is a life lived in and by faith, by and through Grace. So no one can say they're saved, fo "he who is thinking to stand--let him observe, lest he fall." (1Co 10:13). Thanks for the understanding. At least I hope Im close.
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Samson

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2011, 12:30:20 PM »

Hi Duane,

I don't know exactly what your looking for in regards to your comments & Question, However I will attempt to make a comment on a particular Question/Comment you made. You will find an excerpt from your initial Post copied & pasted in Blue below this paragraph. Let Me know if I'm off base.

Without that--how do we ensure that the person is a new believer:  to his/her/our/God's satisfaction?
Do we even ask a person who is leaning toward God if he/she would like to become saved/a new believer/born-again/a child of God?
The "Believers Prayer" accomplished the above for me---now what?  Thank you, Duane


My response: I am incapable of FULLY knowing who is a genuine "New Believer" or Who is going to be saved in this Lifetime. I know that everyone will eventually believe & eventually be saved. I am incapable of fully knowing the intentions of another Person's Heart as to whether their "Belief" is a pretense or an outward appearance they wish other's to see. We see the outward appearance as to what or who someone is supposed to be.

Jer 17:9  The heartH3820 is deceitfulH6121 above allH4480 H3605 things, and desperately wicked:H605 whoH4310 can knowH3045 it?

The Heart is " desperately wicked " or more accurately stated  " exceedingly weak." WHO CAN KNOW IT.

H605
אנשׁ
'ânash
aw-nash'
A primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy: - desperate (-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful. fRAIL OR FEEBLE MEANS WEAK.

Jer 17:10  I the LORD(Jehovah or Yahweh) search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

The LORD searches the Heart and knows the true motives and intentions of a Person's Heart. I don't FULLY know My own Heart or My True intentions. It should be the PRIMARY concern of all individuals: " What is My motive" ? Do I truly Believe or desire to believe in Truth, but only God can CAUSE someone to truly believe. Making a claim to believe or be saved in this Lifetime doesn't prove to others that it's 100 % True that it's going to happen in this Lifetime.

Although the concept of Believing, as Ray has mentioned in His article: HOW HARD IS GETTING SAVED, shows that it's a process with the idea of merely Believing(Believe on the Name of the Lord and you will be saved) & Calling on the Name of the Lord and you will be saved is only a small part of the process, but these initial Two Denominators are claimed By most of Christendom( I Believe), so in that sense, they are "Believers," but primarily based on the "Acknowledgment." Read Ray Below !

So you have a scripture that says, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, (Acts 2:21)” And that’s true. But you have to know what it means. And Christians will pick out a verse like that and say, “This is all you have to do…” They find the scripture with the lowest common denominator, with the least amount to do, and if it says that will save you than they say, “That’s it, that’s the one I want!” You see, they want that simple one.

But then in Acts 6:31, it says “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.”

Well which is it? CALL upon the name of the Lord, or BELIEVE in Jesus Christ….and then you’ll be saved.

Well then in Mark 16:16, it says, “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.”

Are you following what I’m talking about here?  Do you see all these scriptures?  Do you think any one of them was written in vain? That we can just tear it out of the bible and say, we don’t need that one, we’ve got six or seven others?  Do you think we can be saved without Christ’s life?  Do you think that scripture is not important?

So now we’ve got to:
1. Confess with your mouth
2. and believe in our heart that He raised Jesus from the dead
3. and we know that we’ve got to be reconciled to God
4. and take on the quality of Christ’s life
5. and we’ve got to walk through the door
6. and be baptized
7. and we’ve got to listen to Ray’s foolishness of preaching
8. and we’ve got to call upon the name of the Lord….etc. etc. etc.

1 John 5:9-10 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God which He has testified about His Son. He who believes on the Son of God (this is the Lord) has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son. (In many bibles it will say, “he that believes not the TESTIMONY,” my margin says testimony) Because he believes not the testimony of the son of God, and this is the testimony that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. He that has the Son, has life, and he that has not the Son of God, has not life. These things I’ve written unto you that you believe on the name of the Son of God.

Now, call upon the name of the Lord, if you call Me Lord do what I say.  Believe on the name of the Lord, “These things I have written that you believe on the name of the Lord, the Son of God!”  What do you do if you believe on the Lord?  What’s the problem with those who don’t?  It says, if they don’t believe the “testimony” that God gave of His son... they don’t believe that!  They won’t be in the Kingdom of God because they don’t believe the testimony that God gave of His son!  What is that testimony?  Get ready…

Revelation 1:1-2 “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Duane, review HOW HARD IS GETTING SAVED PARTS 1 & 2 or listen to the Audio Version, it will give you what exactly a "Believer" really is and it's My opinion that only God fully knows.

Hope this Helps and I didn't confuse you some more, Samson.


 
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arion

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2011, 01:26:19 PM »


Romans 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

And if I'm not mistaken that 'shall be' is in the future tense in the Greek.  It doesn't mean that they are saved at that point but that they shall be saved at a later time.  And that scripture beautifully harmonizes with this one doesn't it?

Php 2:10-11  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When all humanity does that they shall indeed be saved.
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Kat

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2011, 02:14:41 PM »


Hi Duane,

Quote
So...When a person shows a real, genuine interest in knowing/trusting God as Savior--

Without that--how do we ensure that the person is a new believer:  to his/her/our/God's satisfaction?
Do we even ask a person who is leaning toward God if he/she would like to become saved/a new believer/born-again/a child of God?

Here is a verse to consider when you are looking to see if a person is sincerely being called out.

Mat 7:19  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
v20  Therefore by their fruits you will know them. [But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law (Gal 5:22-23)].

Let's not forget.

Mat 7:13  "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
v14  Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Only if a person receives the Holy spirit can they endure to the end of this "difficult path" and if that is so, then the intent of their heart becomes obvious by their fruit. Jesus gave a parable that helps us see how so many do not or can not continue, even if they start out with much zeal.

Luke 8:4  People kept coming to Jesus from one town after another; and when a great crowd gathered, Jesus told this parable:
v5  "Once there was a man who went out to sow grain. As he scattered the seed in the field, some of it fell along the path, where it was stepped on, and the birds ate it up.
v6  Some of it fell on rocky ground, and when the plants sprouted, they dried up because the soil had no moisture.
v7  Some of the seed fell among thorn bushes, which grew up with the plants and choked them.
v8  And some seeds fell in good soil; the plants grew and bore grain, one hundred grains each." And Jesus concluded, "Listen, then, if you have ears!"

Here is where Jesus explained the parable of the Sower to His disciples.

Luke 8:11  "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
v12  Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
v13  But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
v14  Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
v15  But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. (GNB)

To me this passage is summed up when Jesus said this.

Luke 18:24  And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!
v25  For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I think this might be speaking of anybody who is "rich" in the ways/cares of this world. "By their fruits you will know them."
   
mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Joel

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2011, 11:14:47 PM »

Jesus made a statement that helps to clarify.

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him. If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed:
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joel
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adiamondintheson

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 05:45:46 PM »

My oh MY!!!!

My husband and I have been reading and studying all of BT studies for the last 4 years.  It blows us both away at how each time we read... we're finding out something totally NEW!!  How could this be.  It's from the same Bible I've heard preached from since I was a child... (I'm the daughter of a Nazarene Minister) and yet, it's like it's a WHOLE DIFFERENT BOOK!!!   After these four years, we opened up the forum to find the question posted here about salvation... and the link to "How Hard is it To Be Saved"....   WOW!!!  I'm sure we read it all in Rays articles before... but it really didn't sink in till yesterday what it really is saying.  We WONDERED... how will we know when we are SAVED???  This article spells it all right out there.... and Rays talking about Revelation, the symbols, and how it all fits into our being saved... a work in progress...  it's all beginning to make perfect SENSE!!!   We soooooo LOVE, what BT has done for us.  We are being FREE'd from the guilt, and FREE'd to grow!!  It's amazing... and how it all came to be so clear to this wonderful man... (it has to be God)... because the scriptures do NOT contradict themselves anymore... (hehehe)..  things are becoming more and more clear every time we study... and we're excited.  My husband and I are ages 64 & 65, and it feels like we are brand new!!  (certainly not in the flesh... but definitely in the spirit)!!!  Thank God for Ray, and all that He has done through him.
Connie
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gmik

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2011, 10:12:20 PM »

 :D connie I am sitting here just a grinning reading your post!!  Love it!!!

I think utter joy and happiness at His word is surely a sign of 'on the road to being Saved'....dont cha think??? :D
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indianabob

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Re: The salvation culmination
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2011, 12:34:39 PM »

Hi Connie,
Great testimony and helpful.
It truly is amazing how God works with individuals and especially with a few couples such as you two.
May your joy be a blessing to others.
Kindly, Indiana Bob


My oh MY!!!!

My husband and I have been reading and studying all of BT studies for the last 4 years.  It blows us both away at how each time we read... we're finding out something totally NEW!!  How could this be.  It's from the same Bible I've heard preached from since I was a child... (I'm the daughter of a Nazarene Minister) and yet, it's like it's a WHOLE DIFFERENT BOOK!!!   After these four years, we opened up the forum to find the question posted here about salvation... and the link to "How Hard is it To Be Saved"....   WOW!!!  I'm sure we read it all in Rays articles before... but it really didn't sink in till yesterday what it really is saying.  We WONDERED... how will we know when we are SAVED???  This article spells it all right out there.... and Rays talking about Revelation, the symbols, and how it all fits into our being saved... a work in progress...  it's all beginning to make perfect SENSE!!!   We soooooo LOVE, what BT has done for us.  We are being FREE'd from the guilt, and FREE'd to grow!!  It's amazing... and how it all came to be so clear to this wonderful man... (it has to be God)... because the scriptures do NOT contradict themselves anymore... (hehehe)..  things are becoming more and more clear every time we study... and we're excited.  My husband and I are ages 64 & 65, and it feels like we are brand new!!  (certainly not in the flesh... but definitely in the spirit)!!!  Thank God for Ray, and all that He has done through him.
Connie
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