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[River]

I need help with this 2nd coming of Christ subject. Being brought up in the churches this was always taught. But now that I look deeply into things and ask questions I doubt this 2nd coming idea. It seems like the early believers thought something was going to happen soon but from all my studies the only thing I can see is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Thanks.

River

[mharrell08]

What exactly is your question?

[Kat]

Hi River,

But now that I look deeply into things and ask questions I doubt this 2nd coming idea.

Christ will not return until the Elect/Bride of every generation has been prepared and are ready (even though for most they are waiting in the grave), however many generations that takes.

Rev 6:9  When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
v10  they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
v11  Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Rev 19:7  Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
v8  it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Christ resurrects the Elect to join Him, "I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also," (John 14:3). Then Christ and the Elect will return together to rule the earth.

Rev 19:11  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v12  His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
v13  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
v14  And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

The resurrection/return of Christ is the hope and faith that the Elect have for Life or else what do we have? If we believe that Christ was the Son of God and was raised from the dead, then we can know that He will do the same for us (raise us from our grave). 

1Th 4:13  But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
v14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
v15  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
v16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
v18  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[JohnMichael]

Is it the Second Coming that you are questioning, or is it the Rapture falsehood?

In Him,
John

[Oatmeal]

Is not River asking why the early believers expected Jesus to come soon, "soon" seeming to mean in their own lifetime?

[River]

Hi everyone, I did my best in asking and as you see it spans out in many directions. That is why I am trying to get a handle on this subject. From Kats response I see a resurection being spoke of. I think my confusion come from that all I know of a 2nd coming is mainly the church teachings which do include rapture or other countless things. But like I said all the things I know from the scripture where we are lead to believe are future happened allready. I spent lots of time on this and often I find my misunderstanding comes from a preconcieved idea. If I look at it from a spiritual view I don't get caught up in this He is returning to earth and people meet him in the sky etc. That all seems so physical when it is taught like that. It sound so Jehovah Witness to me when it goes that route. The idea that there is some sort of God government etc. I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me unless I see Christ coming quickly to me and resurecting me inwardly. Does that makes sense to anyone? 

[Joel]

We sure do have to be born of the Spirit, but that doesn't cloth us with immortality here.
The best anyone by the grace of God can do in this life is about 120 years, so everyone allways meets their physical death sooner or later.

Here are a few scriptures;
Titus 2:11-13
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 9:27-28
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Joel

[River]

Hi Joel, I realize our flesh and blood passes away. Here are some scriptures that came to mind right after reading your post. Thanks for responding. 


John 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

John 7:38 He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.

1 Corinthians 15:46 However, that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

John 3:7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

[Joel]

Hi River, Ray has answered emails and taught regarding Preterism, and Preterists if I remember correctly. ( 70 A.D.)
As to a second coming, here is more scripture.

Acts 1:9-11
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

There where some in Paul's day that taught that the Resurrection had passed already. 2nd Timothy 2:17-18

Joel

[River]

Hi River, Ray has answered emails and taught regarding Preterism, and Preterists if I remember correctly. ( 70 A.D.)
As to a second coming, here is more scripture.

Acts 1:9-11
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

There where some in Paul's day that taught that the Resurrection had passed already. 2nd Timothy 2:17-18

Joel

Just because things have passed doesn't mean it is a teaching of preterism so say. I am aware of preterism teachings and they are varied as well. They are divided on this subject as well. 70 A.D. took place and surely slams in the face of the false rapture teaching.
As for your scripture are you aware of what the cloud is or are you aware of what coming in clouds means by the scriptures and it's spiritual application? I don't have a problem with the scriptures, I want to know what they mean! But we live in a strongly influenced culture where we apply meaning to scriptures and make them in our mind something they are not even remotely connected with. With see this with the thousands of sects of Christian teachings. So reading Acts 1: 9-11 doesn't automatically make it a "second coming" interpretation. Even more so when we create our own ideas of what a "second coming" is.

[River]

I won't say anymore on this subject. I just read a post from Craig and I don't want to cross the line and make someone think I am teaching. Sorry if I broke rules. Thanks for everyone's input.

[wisdom]

I dont understand why you had to stop your train of thought, river. The Holy Spirit is our only teacher, from the moderators on down we are all here to learn no one knows everything

[arion]

I dont understand why you had to stop your train of thought, river. The Holy Spirit is our only teacher, from the moderators on down we are all here to learn no one knows everything

That is true.  However we agree when we become members here to confine ourselves to the teachings that Ray has presented and if we have disagreements with him on anything to e-mail him and take it up with him directly.  There is so much false teaching in the world that if these threads are allowed to evolve and go off in every direction with things that Ray hasn't taught on then all sorts of error can be brought in.  We have more than enough material here that has been taught on to last us a lifetime and they don't allow us to stray off those things for the protection of the board as a whole.  Many of us believe certain things that Ray hasn't taught on and there are many different areas on the Internet where we are free to explore those things if we wish....but not here.