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[Dennis Vogel]

> Ray,
>
> It is so sad to see that you are allowing Satan to use you to confuse people
> and to tell them to not believe the BIBLE! When you say that there is no
> Hell and no trinity, you are going directly against the very Word of God.
> IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS IN THE BIBLE THAT THERE IS A HELL! If there isn't a
> hell, then where do you think Satan and all the fallen angels will live? I
> can tell you from the Bible. Check out Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10.
> Also, the Bible says clearly that those who refuse Him will spend eternity
> there. Revelation 20:12-15 says,"AND I SAW THE DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, STAND
> BEFORE GOD; AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED: AND ANOTHER BOOK WAS OPENED, WHICH IS
> THE BOOK OF LIFE: AND THE DEAD WERE JUDGED OUT OF THOSE THINGS WHICH WERE
> WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. AND THE SEA GAVE UP THE
> DEAD WHICH WERE IN IT; AND DEATH AND HELL DELIVERED UP THE THE DEAD WHICH
> WERE IN THEM : AND THEY WERE JUDGED EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.
> AND DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. THIS IS THE SECOND
> DEATH. AND WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST
> INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE." It's not God sending us there, it's man's own
> choice. God wants us to choose to accept His gift of salvation on our own
> will, however if we know the truth from the Bible and still refuse to accept
> Christ as our Saviour, then WE have sent ourselves to an eternal Hell, not
> GOD! AND YOU, are sending people to hell as well with your website. I'm
> not sure what Bible you use, but obviously you have been very misguided.
> When Jesus was on the earth, He spoke more about Hell then He did of Heaven.
> AND GUESS WHAT? It's all recorded in the KJV Bible. Wow! Maybe you
> should actually read some things in it before you put all this stuff on your
> website. There are also verses in the Bible that prove the Trinity is real,
> and that man does have a soul. In Genesis 1:26 it says, "Let US make man in
> OUR image." What about I John 5:7 which says, "FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT
> BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: AND THESE
> THREE ARE ONE." Just those two verses alone should be enough but I won't
> stop there. What about Matthew 3:13-17 where Jesus is being baptized.
> Jesus is in the water, the Spirit is coming down like a dove, and the Father
> is speaking from Heaven-three distinct persons. What about how the Bible
> commands us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy
> Ghost? There is God the Father-a verse for that is I corinthians 8:6.
> There is God the Son:Jesus-verses for that-John 1:1-3, 14; John 3:16, John
> 10:28-32, John 5:18, Colossians 2:9, I Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:8, Matthew
> 9:1-7, Matthew 18:20, John 3:13. God the Holy Spirit-Acts 5:3-4, John
> 15:26, Acts 13:1-2, 16:6, Ephesians 4:30. Check those out and then tell me
> the Trinity isn't real. Do you believe in Heaven? Probably not. But if you
> don't, let me warn you, you definitely won't be there! Some good books in
> the Bible for you to read would be John and Revelation. Ohhhh, that's
> right, did you already read them? ...Well, if you have read them, and still
> don't believe in a hell, then you obviously don't have the right Bible or
> you aren't all there. I believe you to be one of Satan's greatest tools in
> working against God and all that He has written for us in the Bible. You
> probably are really a member of the Church of Satan and are just trying to
> earn brownie points. Anyways, I hope that doesn't sound like I'm just being
> rude, I really believe that to be the case.
> May you come to know the ONE TRUE GOD before it's too late!
> A Saved from HELL Baptized Christian,
> Rachel
> PS. I would appreciate a response, my email is ...


Dear Rachel:

Rachel, you do not have enough information on this subject to even have a valid opinion. You say: "The BIBLE says....."  God did not write the "bible."  God wrote the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures from which we  translate bibles. There are many bibles that do not contain the word "hell." Do you know why? Of course you don't. Well the reason is that there is no word in either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures that can be translated "hell," that's why. If you would read my series on "HELL," you would learn these things, but the question is, Are you interested in the Truths of God or the evil traditions of men?

God be with you,

Ray

[Satch]

Please forgive if I am speaking out of turn but in reading the post by Rachel, she did provide a lot of scripture. It does seem that she has studied and gone to the Bible. The Bible is our "touchstone" in the truths that we live by. I don't have an original scroll written in the Hebrew or Greek and I don't know of anyone who does. We take the translation we have and study and read to the best of our abilities. Everyone has the right to express their opinion and what they see in the scriptures. I don't think they should be " shot down".

[zander]

Its great to see Rachel provide "bible verses", that at least shows she isnt without foundation.

But shes part of the firm that knows or teaches as much as she does.  Lets hope she studies further as we all know the original manuscripts are available now.

[Satch]

Hopefully, we all will continue to study and pray with open minds and hearts so that God can do His will in our lives.

[hillsbororiver]

Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Satch, have you read any of Ray and Mike's material? I think you will see Rachel's post in an entirely different light (Lord willing) if you take the time to read the Lake of Fire series and Strong Delusion.

No more pain, no more suffering or crying, sorrow is gone as well, would this be true if an eternal hell existed?

Dan 12:4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Knowledge of Hebrew and Greek is not the stumbling block it was in the past, anyone sitting at a computer with Internet access is a click away from the root meanings of these words if they so desire.

Satch, who "shot her down," did you read all her own supposition she threw in with a few scriptures? An effective technique used by satan from the beginning. Did you see where she accused Ray of "confusing people and tell them not to believe in the Bible," show me where Ray does that in his papers.

She also makes the statement that the in the KJV bible He speaks more of hell than heaven, I did a quick search on KJV e-sword and got 54 hits on hell (don't forget to check the original Hebrew/Greek) and 551 hits on heaven.

Do you really believe Ray is a member of the church of satan and is trying to earn brownie points? This woman is presently delusional, it may just be that when she was introduced to the Good News she was shocked and repelled by it, I pray for her and that her eyes are opened.

Until that time the unscriptural heresy she proposes does need to be disputed and exposed.

Joe

[Sorin]

Great post Bobby!!

[Dennis Vogel]

I emailed Rachel the following: What do you think Satch?

Please see this from http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

Dennis Vogel


 

First of all we must dispense with I John 5:7 which reads in the King James Version

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

There is a problem with this verse. The words that I typed in bold print are not Scripture. They should NOT be in the Bible. There are many Bibles that do not contain these words. Here are a few:

The Concordant Literal New Testament: "...seeing that three there are that are testifying, the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing."

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures: "For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement."

A New Translation by James Moffatt: "The witnesses are three, the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three of them are in accord."

The Emphatic Diaglott: "For there are three which testify; the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are of one."

This version has a footnote: "This text concerning the heavenly witnesses [as found in some versions] is NOT contained in ANY Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the 15th century. It is not cited by ANY of the Greek ecclesiastical writers; nor by ANY of the early Latin fathers..."

The Holy Bible--New Catholic Version: "For there are three that bear witness [in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth]: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three are one."

The brackets are supplied by the translators. This version also has a footnote: "According to the evidence of many manuscripts, and the majority of commentators, these verses should read: ‘For there are three that bear witness: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three are one.’ The Holy See reserves to itself the right to pass finally on the origin of the present reading."

The New Testament from 26 Translations: Footnote, page 1183, "The words between ‘bear record’ (verse 7) and ‘the spirit’ (verse 8) are now recognized as not adequately supported by original manuscripts."

As those words were hand written in a copy of a manuscript as late as the 15th century and do not appear in ANY Greek manuscript, they have no place in the inspired Word of God. I know of only one other verse that does not have adequate support by original manuscripts and that is Acts 28 and verse 30. This added verse in Acts 28 is not, however, harmful as the added verse in I John 5:7.

Why do intelligent people allow theologians to convince them that one plus one plus one equals ONE? If a person is not even qualified to teach kinder-garden math, who would trust these same men with the dissemination of mature spiritual knowledge?

Let me be perfectly clear, logical, and Scriptural on this matter:

One plus one plus one DOES NOT equal one!

One God plus one God plus one God DOES NOT equal one God!

One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God DOES NOT equal one whole God!

The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is!

A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!

[Satch]

I ask that you allow me to respond to the above post. I do not believe that Mr. Smith is earning "brownie points for the church of satan". Neither do I agree with the scathing manner in which the one who posted this to Mr. Smith. She is no more to judge than anyone else. I also do not believe for a moment that the "orthodox church" has the power to "send people to hell". I appreciate so much the kindness that you all have shown me as I have been here. You have seen me through some rough times and I ask that you continue to pray for me and my family. For the sake of peace I will be asking the moderator to remove me from registered users. I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone on this forum. Many thanks to you all and may God bless, Satch

[Dennis Vogel]

Sorry Satch, I do not understand why you want to be removed? Believe me you are not a stumbling block. We are able to stand. I hope you did not take my post in the wrong way because I meant nothing bad towards you in any way. Just wanted to know if you could see that that text does not belong in bibles.

Dennis

[Steve Crook]

Forget it. Had something to say, but falls on deaf ears.

[Satch]

Dennis , I did not take offense at what you wrote back at all. I highly respect you as you have shown the type of man you must be in the time I have been here. If you go on to read the post above and below yours , I think you will see why I need to be removed. I don't want to create anything that would divert people from their study , worship and fellowship on the forum. Most Sincerely and may God bless you, Satch

[Steve Crook]

Please forgive if I am speaking out of turn but in reading the post by Rachel, she did provide a lot of scripture. It does seem that she has studied and gone to the Bible. The Bible is our "touchstone" in the truths that we live by. I don't have an original scroll written in the Hebrew or Greek and I don't know of anyone who does. We take the translation we have and study and read to the best of our abilities. Everyone has the right to express their opinion and what they see in the scriptures. I don't think they should be " shot down".

Everyone has the right to express their opinion and what they see in the scriptures. I don't think they should be "shot down".

This is exactly why the "church" is the way it is today. "Lets just all get along". "Unity in the essentials, tolerance in the non-essesntials." Fact is, a person can post every scripture in a bible translation and still be doing ONLY THAT. It's the same exact thing that pastors do on Sunday mornings. They will take 1-2 verses, GIVE THEIR INTERPRETATION of those verses...and there is the sermon for the day. PLEASE!

Fact is, scripture will define scripture. Fact is, take a KJV, NIV, NASV, YLT, and ALL THE OTHER translations and it can be show that they all have contradictions (the KJV has MANY) in the translating they are in. That is why we are told to study to show ourselves proved worthy, but we are not told to use scriptures that back up our "opinion".

I use to be apart of that crowd too. I was a "Southern Baptist Hell-fire follower" from birth, being born into such a family. I know the ends and outs of being a baptist. I've had my eyes and ears opened by the Lord to now know that if you know one, you know them all. The denominations out there are all divided, but yet have the truth? NONE OF THEM HAVE ONE DOCTRINAL TRUTH, including the church you attend. Not ONE TRUTH. Show me?

I'm sure you'll have your thoughts about my comments. Let the Lord be the judge of them. You are at a point where you will need to be able to show whether you stand on a foundation of sand or a foundation built on THE ROCK. Thus sayeth the Lord: (1Pe 4:17)  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Christ NEVER EVER supported such a DAMNABLE heresy such as hell-fire for all eternity. ALL those who even slightly think it if ok for a wolf, such as this poster, to come into our midst and spewn these ungodly remarks and be accepted AND NOT EXPOSED AND SHOT DOWN, well they are an enemy of God.

Steve Crook

[Dennis Vogel]

But Steve, there was a time when we all believed in hell, etc. We need to be kind if the person is willing to listen and discuss. But if someone has an agenda then we show them the door.

Dennis

[YellowStone]

Satch, I have read many of your posts and I know that you have a lot to say. As for being a stumbling block and not wanting to cause anyone to stumble; this is admirable.

However, I must ask if you agree with Rays argument or that of Rachels? I would suggest that you respond to this board in the "christ-like" manner you see fit to as to help the likes of Rachel. Not all of us would answer everything in the same manner as Ray. He is not God and does not pretend to be. If you can offer more, then please do, but please do not be so quick to condemn.

Lastly, I am very sorry that you feel this forum has nothing to offer you. Are you so comfortable? I pray that you do have the sincerity of heart and that you continue to stay and read and learn the "real" truth.

Darren

[YellowStone]

Bobby, you said this way better than I did.

[Steve Crook]

But Steve, there was a time when we all believed in hell, etc. We need to be kind if the person is willing to listen and discuss. But if someone has an agenda then we show them the door.

Dennis

I totally agree. I was referring to the poster and not accepting the heresies they were communicating. Being that Satch was the person who made the post about no shooting that poster down, that is why I mentioned this in particular.

Offending another brother or sister is definitely something I have no interest in. Whenever I personally post, it is NEVER to offend another brother or sister in Christ, no matter their progression in their walk. However, if even an inkling of acceptance for these hereises are shown, I believe the holy scripture shows we are to have no part of that.

If I have offended Satch, I openly apology directly to Satch here and now ad ask forgiveness for that. However, the Truth is the Truth.

Steve Crook

[Steve Crook]

And to add to that: I know in all of my substance exactly who and what I am...that which will remain until the day I die...a BEAST. I also know all that I believed and spread around like candy at a birthday party....even if folks didn't want it. I do believe that Satch is person who is seeking to know the Lord in Truth and Spirit, and I truly hope she sticks around. That was not my intent, to drive anyone away...but rather direct them to the DOOR and WAY.

Steve Crook

[Satch]

Hey you all, I have no hard feelings towards any of you. You have blessed my life and opened my eyes to so much. You have cared for me through the difficult times and I have no doubt that many of you will continue to pray for me and that is the best gift anyone can give or receive.  I have received much from you here at this forum and definitely think the forum has so much to offer to so many. I fully intend to go on-line and read and learn from you all but truly feel that it would be better for me just to read at least for now rather than to post. Sincerely, Satch

[hillsbororiver]

Hey you all, I have no hard feelings towards any of you. You have blessed my life and opened my eyes to so much. You have cared for me through the difficult times and I have no doubt that many of you will continue to pray for me and that is the best gift anyone can give or receive.  I have received much from you here at this forum and definitely think the forum has so much to offer to so many. I fully intend to go on-line and read and learn from you all but truly feel that it would be better for me just to read at least for now rather than to post. Sincerely, Satch

Hi Satch, from time to time I have taken time off from posting (maybe not enough for some folks) but have devoted that time to more study and just perusing the forum gaining knowledge and understanding from the other members. If it makes you more comfortable not to share your opinions at this time that is fine but please do not shut the door, and feel free to post whenever you have the urge.

We all come from different backrounds, generations and stages of maturity and with honest and open sharing there will be times when we may not be in agreement or have different ways of stating the same thought, what is important is humbly seeking Him to perfect us, to grow in His wisdom and love, if that is your motivation then you belong here.

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Thanks Bobby, these thoughts are as much a reminder to me as anything else.

Peace and God's grace to all my brothers and sisters.

Joe