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is it important to change mind about freewill ?

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longhorn:
Not real sure I would choose Mine or Musicmans choices.  However, if one should choose those choices, feel free (will) to choose the best choice.

Longhorn

DougE6:
Odading,

God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line, in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe. That is what is meant by, "there is no free will" What John said about us being clay is right from the scriptures. Dave brought up a really good point in pointing out the difference between "will" and "free will". No one, no one, except a Looney tunes, would deny that we each  have a will, and that will does makes millions of choices throughout our lifetime. Is this decision making process free from cause? From God? That is the real question.

Interestingly, many scientists do not believe in free will. Many scientists who do not believe in spiritual things are of the opinion that all our decisions must be predetermined, since the brain being the source of decisions, that brain being in compliance with cause and effect, with natural laws, cannot operate outside of natural laws, so we can always trace the effect, the decision, to a cause. They believe if we know all the causes at any given time, we can predict the effect(the decision) with certainty.

I think that last line, is close to what Ray has written about choice. Since we are responders to causes, and since the strongest cause or causes will compel the choice(our will), then since God can orchestrate the causes, He can control the effects. 

However, Ray is much different than the scientists in that He does believe in the spiritual, in God. And He and most of us here at Bible truths, do believe there are spiritual causes that are unseen, and these spiritual forces are all at the ultimate control of God.

How do these spiritual causes effect the brain, which is substance, matter? No one really knows, but spiritual forces do.  I personally am of the opinion that the uncertainty of quantum mechanics and the duality of matter, being both wave and particle, is the key to the doorway, but that is not in view in this discussion, it is simply said that I do believe science will increasingly show over time that that the observer, the conscious mind, does effect matter at the quantum level. Many experiments have already shown this. And this is enough to show that spiritual forces can influence matter, which can influence decisions. OK enough of that for now.

It is possible  people may misunderstand that my continual? exhortations to be righteous, to encourage ourselves to DO things; to be in conflict and indicate I believe in free will. This is not the case. I prefer to let my confidence in God being in control of EVERYTHING to be an anchor for my faith, but then I want to seek and search and follow Him with all my heart.  I can think of NO other way to be, to grow in Him. I do things that the scriptures tell me to do, and I encourage others to do so, too! I personally leave the parsing of each and every individual cause to God alone, and watch over ONLY my own heart and actions. I want to be changed by Godly causes, like scripture, like by a renewed mind, by the Spirit of God, by the washing of the Word,  by following the admonitions of scripture by delighting myself in the Lord, by seeking His resurrection, to actually, somehow be an over comer.  I want Jesus to be manifest in me, I really do, and to the best of my ability I seek Him fearfully, meaning I know from experience how weak my flesh is, but I so want to be strong. So I TRY (in italics cause it is hard) to keep focused on my heart, yet I have the certain confidence of God being in control of everything that keeps me at great peace. Does this make sense?

Knowing God is in complete control is a bedrock, and it shows how little you are, in actuality.

I sense in you a desire to be righteous, and that it would be hard for you to understand how one can not believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in free wills "accountability". Is that correct?.  So I have tried to give you a small glimpse of how I approach it. Others I am sure will have their own ways. Your fear actually has some validity, studies have shown. Recent studies have shown that if you convince experimental subjects that they have no free will, that their actions are not of themselves, they are less inclined to help others and become more aggressive!  So your anxiousness may be rooted in that, that you fear a temptation to become that way.  That is NOT the correct understanding of Gods Sovereignty. It is not a license to disobey and be sinful.  It is an anchor for the soul to give you peace in an uncertain world. It shows you are the clay and He is the Potter. It is still incumbent on you to obey Him, to obey the scriptures, to do good works, and then, give Him all the praise for giving you the strength to do so.  None of the admonitions and accountabilities of scripture are removed or made invalid by the fact that "free" will does not actually exist.

Doug

odading:
Wow.... I'm touched there are so many responds from all loving member here.
Thank you... thank you very much in deed to all my responder.

I'm very sorry I can't respond to each respond, but in general I learn and understand about my topic in progress because of all my responder.

I know now, make choices is different than freewill.
Will is a will itself but can not called "free".


--- Quote from: octoberose on November 17, 2011, 12:39:44 PM ---I decide what they eat, when they eat, when they go to the doctors, I bring them to classes on doggy behavior. I give love, I give treats, I withhold treats, etc.
--- End quote ---
But what about if I prepare his food, and he doesn't want to eat the food prepared in that exact time ? Is it the dog's freewill ? or is it the dog's choice (or just Will) ?


--- Quote from: Extol on November 17, 2011, 12:45:27 PM ---You can say more about this, too. Why do we wear shirts at all? Because we want to keep warm, and because we want to cover our nakedness. But why shirts? Why don’t we wear fish tanks? Because our bodies aren’t shaped to wear fish tanks. Why are our bodies shaped the way they are? Because that’s how GOD made them. You see all the causes?
--- End quote ---
Yes.... as in my first post I quoted that my "freewill" will always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect. But then now I know, I can not call that a freewill - it's a choice or just a Will.


--- Quote ---There are other reasons why free will can be dangerous. It can make you proud, and make you rely on your own limited abilities, and a number of other things.
--- End quote ---
To be honest, when I thought it's a freewill God gave me - it did make me "proud" :).
But "proud" in different sense... "proud" that God trusted me by giving freewill and I need to be responsible of that... I need to "warn" myself that whatever my choice to do is will have effect.


--- Quote from: gmik on November 17, 2011, 01:02:59 PM ---It is easier for me to just pile all my decisions onto God's "shoulders" and let Him be responsible for me ;)
--- End quote ---
This is one reason that I like to have "freewill" ... :).
Every result which I did is not God's responsibility.... with my "freewill" I choose to eat too much then get stomachache is not God's responsibility... :).


--- Quote ---I also have trouble explaining any of this to my free willer friends.  They just don't want to "give up" any control and that is Pride!  They don't want to be robots...even tho scripture plainly states HE is the potter and we are the clay.
--- End quote ---
Do the one who admit there is no freewill - must admit also that they are just robot ? puppet of God ?


--- Quote from: DougE6 on November 17, 2011, 01:24:30 PM ---It is true that free will does not exist. Does this mean we can't preach to bad people? Or one can reason "I am a prostitute because it is Gods' will? I would answer No to the first and a very careful and qualified yes to the second, qualified Because she is still fully accountable!.
--- End quote ---
But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?


--- Quote ---So we by "default" HAVE to do our best, if we want to achieve any purpose, support our famlies, learn something new, run a business, achieve, do a ministry, resist evil, etc... even though God has already determined what will happen. The Olympic athlete must always train and train, and practice and practice, even though God has determined already he would win the gold. Without this training the Gold Medalist would not win. SO our participation is required because WE DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE. We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying, or "laissez faire" just because God causes it all.  Even though God may be the cause, we still have to put in the effort.
--- End quote ---
This is a very difficult "situation" for me.. :)

How "our participation" be required, when the participation itself is not because us, but God's Will ?

How an athlete must always train and train, while actually there is no "must" but God's Will who put "the must" or "not must" ?

We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying - how possible someone is "trying" or "not trying" if God Himself Will this athlete to "trying or NOT trying" ?


--- Quote ---As far as the prostitute? yes there is truth that the prostitute is fulfilling what God had foreordained to happen and what she should be, at least for a short while(we will not be sinners forever).
--- End quote ---

"for a short while"... what about if she died as a prostitute ?  From Ray's website, I learn that all human will not be sinner forever... it happen either maybe during someone still live or after he died. - doesn't matter much because whatever it is, she will not be sinner after the judgement ?

To be honest, on the contrary I can not think that God personally foreordained to happen that the woman should be a prostitute. But His LAW-cause&effect apply to her life (our life also).


--- Quote ---But it does not mean that she can use that as an excuse, TO CONTINUE! NO, she can't.
--- End quote ---
But in the real world... she of course can say that as an excuse, right ? (applying because it's God's Will for her to say the excuse ?).


--- Quote ---So all, each of our lives WILL include a time in deep sin of some sorts, it is necessary for our spiritual development to go through it.  BUT THIS BRINGS UP AN OBLIGATION! THE OBLIGATION TO REPENT OF OUR WRONGDOING!
--- End quote ---
But how people is to oblige, if the obligation itself is God's Will to oblige or not to oblige ?

so that's why to escape from this IMO "difficult situation" battling in me, it's not God who personally Will - but His LAW-cause&effect which "work" on the daily activities human life.

Would you please enlighten me :
Is it God whom personally "infiltrate" (do His Will) in every human daily activities ? Or is it His LAW that works ?


--- Quote from: Akira329 on November 17, 2011, 02:48:51 PM ---So why did you join this forum?

Did you come here expecting members to convince you to change your mind?
Were you hoping Ray would convince you?
If your not convinced, why join?
--- End quote ---
Because IMO, having a freewill is a good thing - so I joined the forum to know more about no-freewill.


--- Quote ---You would only change your mind about it so members don't think your wrong?
--- End quote ---
That's not my main point, you will know by my subject-title : "is it important" ??


--- Quote ---You spent a great deal of time to explain your beliefs of freewill. Why? Why here?
--- End quote ---
so the forum know what kind of "freewill" which is in my opinion. So my responder won't waste their time to describe what I already know.


--- Quote ---You ask yourself what would change your mind.
--- End quote ---
Then I don;t need to join the forum, if I can find an answer by myself ... :)


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on November 17, 2011, 05:26:08 PM --- we do have a will but we do not have "free" will.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 17, 2011, 05:46:06 PM ---It's much easier to understand if you remove 'free' from 'free-will'.  Every choice we make has a cause.
--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---
Yes... I think I'm now starting to understand.. that what I call "freewill" is actually just the will ... :)


--- Quote from: DougE6 on November 17, 2011, 08:49:00 PM ---that it would be hard for you to understand how one can not believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in free wills "accountability". Is that correct?.
--- End quote ---
Nop... :) as mostly the one believe in freewill whom are "judged wrong" - so it's vice versa : how one can believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in NO free wills "accountability" ...:)


--- Quote ---Your fear actually has some validity, studies have shown. Recent studies have shown that if you convince experimental subjects that they have no free will, that their actions are not of themselves, they are less inclined to help others and become more aggressive!  So your anxiousness may be rooted in that, that you fear a temptation to become that way.
--- End quote ---
Actually it's not the "temptation to become that way" that I've been thinking of... but "how come God's Will infiltrates every single daily activities of human life".

IMHO He made His LAW-cause&effect, this LAW will work by itself based on the Will (I don't use "freewill" anymore now ... :)) He gave to every human.

In Adam&Eve case, IMHO He knew "it will happen" - but He didn't personally WILL influence Eve to be deceived.... on the contrary He did "warn/advice" (which I assume that this warning is to show He loves) not to eat the fruit, which indirectly telling that there is a LAW-cause&effect. Whether to eat or not is still AdamEve to decide... If I may say, somewhat like "let it happen" :)

About the potter and the clay.
I don't see in Jeremiah that the potter deliberately make the vessel spoil, while in Rome the potter seems deliberately make the vessel spoil.
How this contradict ?

Finally, thank you very much again to all my lovely responder.
I'm sorry if my respond is too long and please pardon my English.

best regards,
odading.

Kat:
Hi Odading,

Welcome to the forum  :)
Well we're having no free-will is one of the hardest things to believe and let go of, because our carnal mind wants desperately to think it has control. But what about the sovereignty of God? If God is truly sovereign and totally in control and actually holds all this creation together, then where is our free-will?

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

We are in an age of spiritual darkness, of great delusion, Satan has deceived the whole world.

2Thes 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

Rev 12:9  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is all necessary for God's plan, in His wisdom  He has worked out the very best way inwhich we all will be brought to perfection (maybe not the way we would have done it). We are first to have a backdrop of darkness/evil, so then we need to be brought to the light/righteousness.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)

God is working all this out behind the scene where we are not aware of His controlling all things. However God being in control and ultimately causing all things to happen does not make Him evil and a sinner. Here is a excerpt from the article no. 10 'The Synagogue of Satan - There's One Near You.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html -------------------------

SATAN’S ROLE IN SALVATION

Satan does play a role in the salvation of the human race. Satan is just one more "evil" that God uses in bringing many sons into glory. The very reason that the above heading might turn some heads is not because it isn’t true or completely Scriptural, but rather because the world has been deceived about most of these spiritual things. God "created evil" (Isa. 45:7.) God does not create things that do not serve a good purpose. By the way, the word translated into "evil" in Isa. 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra, and it is the very same word translated hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times as "evil" throughout the Old Testament.

Now the word ra does not have a conscience and therefore has no moral bias. Evil is not ‘SIN.’ God created evil; God Himself is not evil. And strictly speaking, God did not create sin, nor has God Himself ever sinned. What God has done is created humanity in a spiritually weakened state that is totally incapable of even understanding spiritual laws and principle, let alone being capable of obeying them. And this was not a sin or mistake on God’s part; this was weakness by design. Therefore, God is responsible (certainly not accountable,) but responsible for all sin. And God has already taken responsibility for all sin by sacrificing His Son, Jesus Christ:

"Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29);

"And He [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2.)

Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of "calamity" and not "evil." Of the nineteen times that the word "calamity" appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were too weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

All people who ever live are deceived, wretched sinners and most will go to their grave this way and the world thinks all these are lost, and God is justified to send them to an eternal hell to be tortured forever. What kind of twisted logic is that? Worse though is that's blasphemy to our God. Well they are deceived.

Rev 3:17  Because you say, "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

Only a very few are being given the truth in this life, the rest will be raised in the resurrection of damnation and judgment, to be purged and cleansed in the Lake of fire and at that time "the people of the world learn righteousness."

Isa 26:9  With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

But for now it is a very few having their eyes opened, a very privileged few.

Deu 14:2  For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto Himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Ray's articles are filled with the truth you are looking for. What a great blessing that you are beginning to have your eyes opened yo these truths. I pray it's God will that you continue to strive to learn these truths.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

JohnMichael:

--- Quote ---But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?
--- End quote ---

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).

There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?

Hope this helps; In Him,
John

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