> General Discussions
is it important to change mind about freewill ?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: gk on November 19, 2011, 02:06:12 PM ---Douge6:
“Remember we are all volunteers, WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,
God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”
John from Kentucky:
“In all things, big and small, good and evil, life and death---
God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.
There is a scripture that says birds do not die without His say.
Another scripture says the hairs on our head are numbered by God.
Those two scriptures show that
God micromanages all things to the smallest degree.”
Dave in Tenn:
“Our choices are all caused by something or someone.
And even the causes are caused through things we have no control over in our pasts and our present--our ancestry, our geography, history, etc. etc. etc.
These causes stretch all the way back to the Mind of God
in creation. And He knows the end from the beginning. He is the first 'cause' and continues to 'cause'.”
Douge6:
“God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line,
in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”
John Michael:
“God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,
for the way people are, and for everything.
God doesn't make man sin.”
Douge6:
“God
has created an individual path for us all to walk in, This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed. Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.
Through the process of having us make choices,
even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,
is God's way of making us into His image.”
Kat,
from Ray:
“God determined
who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.
What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,
it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,
that’s why. He is in control of everything!”
=========-------------==========
and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?
--- End quote ---
Because of our exceedingly weak hearts that God created (responsible!) when we sin we absolutely wanted to commit the sin in our hearts (We are accountable.)
There was no forcing on God's part because when we actually did commit the act of sinning, we absolutely wanted to do it. It was really us doing the sin, US making that choice, we really wanted it! We are that spiritually weak. It takes God's strength, His spirit, for us to do any good because without Him, we basically volunteer to sin, "sinning machines!"
An example I once heard and think is powerful is this;
We are like the earth, the earth is void of light on its own. If you take away the sun, the earth is dark. The earth doesn't produce any light on it's own, its rather the sun that shines the light into the earth, illuminating every dark place. Just like if you remove God's light from our hearts, we are dark.
DougE6:
lilitalienboi;
IMHO wonderful summation, your paragraph. Hits the nail on the head.
gk. Your deep questions about the goodness of God grieves me. It grieves me because you are struggling so mightily and I like you. I like you even though I have never met you. Your questions are actually going deep into what the character of God is. You would only be very angry at God, if you felt He was unfair or unreasonable or mean. How do you know that He is? I ask that very sincerely. You and me and none of us have seen the outcome of God's plans.
lets agree that God is making a family. Lets say in making a family Jesus is the prototype. Lets say since God gave Jesus everything He is and has, the inheritance that is awaiting the "finished products" meaning when God is done creating us into His image is UNIMAGINABLY WONDERFUL AND BEYOND WHAT CAN POSSIBLY BE IMAGINED.
We all need faith that what is currently happening and what has happened on this earth is absolutely necessary, that this is the best way for God to accomplish this task. We just have to believe that.
I could produce a bunch of quick responses and they may be just too trite for you, even if they work for me. I could say that we all, the human race, NEED to have great evil being committed so we all could know collectivelly, just how great evil can be. I think that may be very important before we become what we are to be. We may need to know how deep forgiveness and love can be to forgive and reconcile any and all atrocities ever committed, both the victim and the perpetrator.
Please also, do not forget, that in the person of Jesus, as Jesus was emptied of divine powers and was a man, that God is NOT asking us to go through anything that He Himself was not willing to experience! The scriptures testify that Jesus felt and experienced the worst of the pains and sorrows of this earth...so how could one really claim God is unfair? If He is eventually going to put full divine nature in you as in Jesus, with all that implies, and He also suffered greatly to do this, is the pain of this earth something we can blame Him or hold against Him if He knows it is necessary to get us there? What/where His is now?!
Paul said..these light and momentary sufferings are not worthy of being compared to the glory that will be revealed in us! NOT WORTHY. And how much pain did Paul suffer? More than probably anyone on this earth has, ever.
We all need faith in the goodness of God. We all need faith in our destiny. The world, the flesh and the devil conspire to rob us of our faith. Do not let that happen to you. Forget about worrying about free will and causation. worry about something much deeper. Your judging of the motives of God! That kind of thinking without faith as we live in this pain stricken world, will leave you hopeless and angry and bitter. Do not let that happen to you. Let the plans of God and faith in His goodness soften your heart, as we all need soft hearts. Please don't fall into the trap of the athiest, the athiest believes He is better than God, as He would NEVER subject the human race to what the human race has been subjected to. They feel more righteous than God. That is not a good place to be.
God is the only one that can use evil without impure motive. He is the only one who can make everyone whole and complete and completely Filled with God Himself, so God can be ALL in ALL. Pain is absolutely essential for the spiritual growth that God intends for us to experience. You MUST rise above the world, the flesh and the Deivl. You must!
Kat:
Hi Gary,
I can understand that this is harder for some to comprehend than others. I have been very blessed to be able to accept this idea rather easily of God's sovereignty and our not having free will. But here are a few places where Ray speaks on some of the point you mentioned, maybe something will just come together and help your understanding a bit.
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#freewill2 -------------------------
There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.
Because God has chosen to create and USE evil for a divine purpose, we have no right to judge God as BEING evil. He is not. Neither is it a SIN on God's part to make mortals WHO DO SIN. A sin is a mistake, a lack, lawlessness. God is NONE OF THESE!
Your suggestion that because God chooses to NOT DO or NOT BE certain things, that that somehow LIMITS Him is ludicrous. Listen carefully to what I am about to say: A Being (God) Who has the POWER AND ABILITY to be and do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING HE WISHES, IS NOT LIMITED!!! The fact that God chooses to not only tell the truth, but is, in fact, the embodiment of TRUTH, and never lies, in no way diminishes God or limits God. I am surprised that you cannot see and understand this? God IS AND DOES everything that He wishes--that, my friend, is TOTAL SOVEREIGNTY!!!
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ------------
OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE. Whose do think it is? When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice? If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth? Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well? No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it? We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what? It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE. Can you now understand it?
Do you still think you are a robot? I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2477.0.html ------
"Free Will" does not exist because it is a physiologicaly impossibility and the Scriptures CONDEMN any such vanity-crazed
idea. Have you ever heard of the law of "cause and effect." It means for every effect there is a CAUSE. This IS scientific. Therefore all of your thoughts and actions ARE CAUSED by something. Usually something that you are not even aware of, but being caused nonetheless. This "cause" is what is responsible for your thoughts and actions. And once something is "caused" to happen, it could not have been otherwise. God is the FIRST CAUSE of all law and matter. I use the Scriptures to prove to Christians that they have no free will, as they claim to actually believe the Scriptures. I would not use the Scriptures to prove to an athiestic evolutionary scientist that he has no free will. There I would use scientific law.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html -------------
Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING. We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN. The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own. It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are. NO MAN will tell God He doesn't want to repent when God tells him: "NOW is the time for you to repent, and YOU WILL REPENT"!!
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html --------
God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones: "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa. 55:8-9).
Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer. Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't? Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't. Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts? Yes there is: "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..." (Phil. 2:5).
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God. They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (I Cor. 2:14).
As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL. When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will." And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions. But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN. He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN. God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?" Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL." Oh really? And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T. And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine. The natural mind is totally incapable of loving God: "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
It all starts with God, not with us: "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
And so here is the answer to your question:
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grand to you a "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.
God be with you,
Ray
cjwood:
i was thinking about this the other day after reading the original post and replies. thinking about it as i was driving along the texas hill country. thinking about the most common denominator in all of the replies, and the truths they conveyed. then i thought, no matter who, what, when, where, how, why, etc... everything we do or say, wear or eat, and all the rest of it; it happens as it does because He has known all along that it would happen that way. from the beginning. even that we might wear a blue shirt on whichever day we wear a blue shirt. ya, He knew we would. our Creator is in all the details. whether we see it or not that way.
claudia
odading:
--- Quote from: gk on November 19, 2011, 02:06:12 PM ---Douge6:
“Remember we are all volunteers, WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,
God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”
--- End quote ---
For the purple one, within my own understanding.... that's what I call : "God let it happen".
What do you think about this ?
As also in my analogy, although it's time for the dog to eat - and I've prepared his food, but when he doesn't want to eat - then I don't force feeding him... and let him choose not to eat.
--- Quote ---God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.
“Our choices are all caused by something or someone.
--- End quote ---
As in my understanding, no matter what I choose will be always under His LAW-cause&effect ?
--- Quote ---“God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,
for the way people are, and for everything.
--- End quote ---
this one is difficult for me... as it is still hard for me to have to believe that God's responsible for what human do ... :)
God doesn't need to tell Adam not to eat the fruit - because whatever it is, Adam will eat the fruit. But still God told Adam not to eat the fruit... why ? IMHO He wants human to (also) be responsible.
--- Quote ---it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,
and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?
--- End quote ---
The word "predetermined" also difficult for me to understand.
A. Is it because He knew - that human will sin, but He let it happen
B. Or is it because He deliberately made it - that human will sin
I realized both A and B doesn't matter much....
but oh well.... I'm just human who curious ..:)
in B is in Rome and A is more like in Jeremiah. (in the potter&vessel example)
For all my lovely and kind responder, thank you very much once again.
regards,
reko.
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