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[Kat]

Hi Reko,

We have always welcomed questions and your questions hit on a topic we have discussed here numerous times. I don't mind helping anyone any time with questions. But this forum is totally inadequate to explain this or any subject to someone in and of itself in bits and pieces, post by post. It primarily is for people that read the articles on the main site to come and discuss what they have read, it is that base of understanding that brings us together.

Ray has written an enormous amount of very detailed articles on the very questions you are asking. If the articles are too tedious for you then there are videos and audios. But the bottom line is if you really want to understand these truths to a greater degree you must take time to read and study, there is simply no way around that. Here are some links for you to check out.

Ray's Videos
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8227.0.html

Ray's Audios 
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

Ray's 2008 Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html

Transcripts of Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,12.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[GaryK]

Kat from Ray:

"And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones:  "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).
 
Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer."[/b]



Hi Kat, thanks for the wisdom you’ve shared and leave it to Ray, as usual, to speak in absolutes and that is in the above question, or, “does god have the right?”     There’s a lot to that question, much deeper thinking and much more below the surface than just reciting it over and over as if to accept it should be just based on ‘well, he said it…it must be true’. 

Reciting and acceptance at face value is fine for some, but not for me.   

My life has been one of absolute structure, receiving orders and implement by giving orders.  No random allowed, but, should random occur you can believe there will be a page in a manual on how to deal with it.   Patience may be a virtue but the only time patience was allowed was the time between the command and the carrying out of the command.  No exceptions.   Some people like the chain of command and find comfort in knowing it exists and where the buck stops.  I’m one of them.    I just don’t see it in God’s structure of things yet so Ray is right again, or:

“Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.”

To me, if he has the right then I have to know why and how and when and where.  Not because I'm 'somebody', but, because it must be from structure, otherwise, things don't pull together in a harmonious way that I can understand it.


Somewhere, and at some point, there will be peace in this statement: 

"For My thoughts ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).

Thanks to all for the ear and the patience for my ramblings.


So be it Ray, I’ve trusted you up to now.

[adiamondintheson]

My husband, Dennis, and I study together and he felt a need to reply to this thread with some thoughts of his own.  Connie

"On the subject of 'Free Will'.  There have been several ,who in one form or another have confused  blaming God for sin, if there is no free will on our part to sin.  However, using the “cause and effect” approach, God does grant us choices between good and bad.  There can be many past events or future desires, etc. that we may know of that will cause us to choose; but whatever we choose is the cause of the following effect, be that immediate or delayed. 

I believe Ray used this example in the past.  He explained of a pilot flying over a river looking down to see some rafters on the river.  From his vantage point he could also see a mile or so ahead, there was a very large waterfalls.  If the rafters know this they will stop before they get to the waterfalls... if they don't and choose to continue, the effect can be very dangerous or disastrous to them.  Hopefully, no one would go rafting down a swiftly flowing river without knowing that there is a waterfall ahead and just blindly raft along. We can liken God to the Pilot in the plane who can see the future, or see ahead, and it's up to us to study to avoid those types of situations.  God tells us 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth....            He also says, 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:  Notice that He says “we must STUDY”, present tense... or in other words we must continue to study to become more like Him and to project the fruits of the spirit which are quoted in  Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.     

This is my understanding of why God does NOT give us a 'Free Will' and is also why when we first start to follow Him we have the faith of a mustard seed and are expected to build that by studying His word and in turn our faith will grow with it.  Paul tells us: Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 

I am always open to correction if I have misunderstood, or misquoted anything in this post."

Hope this is of some help...
Dennis

[odading]

My husband, Dennis, and I study together and he felt a need to reply to this thread with some thoughts of his own.  Connie

"On the subject of 'Free Will'.  There have been several ,who in one form or another have confused  blaming God for sin, if there is no free will on our part to sin.  However, using the “cause and effect” approach, God does grant us choices between good and bad.  There can be many past events or future desires, etc. that we may know of that will cause us to choose; but whatever we choose is the cause of the following effect, be that immediate or delayed. 

I believe Ray used this example in the past.  He explained of a pilot flying over a river looking down to see some rafters on the river.  From his vantage point he could also see a mile or so ahead, there was a very large waterfalls.  If the rafters know this they will stop before they get to the waterfalls... if they don't and choose to continue, the effect can be very dangerous or disastrous to them.  Hopefully, no one would go rafting down a swiftly flowing river without knowing that there is a waterfall ahead and just blindly raft along. We can liken God to the Pilot in the plane who can see the future, or see ahead, and it's up to us to study to avoid those types of situations.  God tells us 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth....            He also says, 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:  Notice that He says “we must STUDY”, present tense... or in other words we must continue to study to become more like Him and to project the fruits of the spirit which are quoted in  Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.     

This is my understanding of why God does NOT give us a 'Free Will' and is also why when we first start to follow Him we have the faith of a mustard seed and are expected to build that by studying His word and in turn our faith will grow with it.  Paul tells us: Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 

I am always open to correction if I have misunderstood, or misquoted anything in this post."

Hope this is of some help...
Dennis

Rather than thinking that God deliberately WILL that the raft is to go blindly to the waterfall then the raft fall (potter&vessel in Rome) - I very much prefer your analogy of the pilot (potter&vessel in Jeremiah), totally agree to be honest

Thank you Dennis for your enlightenment.

regards,
odading.

[Kat]

Hi Dennis and Connie,

I understand how there is so much that Ray has said that it can be very difficult to verify something we can remember he said, so sometimes we just put it our words as we think he said it. I have searched and can not find, nor can I remember, Ray speaking about a raft and a waterfall. So we have to be careful in contributing something to Ray, that's why I like to use copy and paste for putting direct quotes of Ray's in posts.

Here is a couple of emails that may help in this idea that God is just an observer.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=9822.0 -----

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3095.0 ------------

You and those who cannot see the simple of Truth concerning the Sovereignty of God use words like puppets, atomatons, and robots, as though they were DIRTY WORDS. You utterly fail to see that we are billions of times more complex than "puppets" or "atomatons."  You fail to see that we LEARN. We have the ability to accumulate, process data, AND LEARN. That God puts us in the situations necessary to accomplish this is no sin.
We "train" our little children by our SUPERIOR POWER AND KNOWLEDGE, and we in fact, FORCE (if you want to use a strong word) our will upon them, by LOVINGLY TEACHING them right from wrong. And thankfully, THEY DO LEARN, and that is no sin on our part for having superior knowledge, wisdom, and power to enforce our will on theirs in this learning process. We ARE God's children.
You are fighting the Scriptures and the laws of physics. There are NO uncaused effects anywhere in the universe except in the deceived minds of carnal-minded men. Listen to my Bible Study from Sunday on our Forum. It is on "free will."

God be with you,
Ray

[DougE6]

Best condensed discourse on the topic on free will that I have seen. Thanks kat for your tireless searching of Rays articles and emails. You are definitely the search engine of this site, to great effect.

Doug

[GaryK]

Once more:


Douge6:

“God being in control of all things,

is actually the bottom line, in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”


John Michael:

“God is responsible

for evil, for good, for the way the world is,

for the way people are, and for everything.



DougE6:


“God

has created an individual path for us all to walk in,  This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed.  Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.

Through the process of having us make choices,
even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,
is God's way of making us into His image.”


Kat,

from Ray:

“God determined

who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.

What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,

it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,

that’s why. He is in control of everything!”



Ray:

“If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world,

and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!


Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES.

But God does not directly do this. He is responsible,

but He does not directly cause those choices.”

^^^^^^(how is this possible if God is in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING???)^^^^^^
Or, maybe Ray is saying God ISN"T in control of everything.

Ray: 

“God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.”



Dammit.

Is God in control of ALL things………………or not?

If I have a choice to make:

Choice A?

Choice B?

Choice C?

if I choose choice C, AND, choice C is the most sinful choice I could have possibly made, has major dire consequences and supplies unending extreme unhappiness for many….I made the choice, yes, I get that part, but didn’t God cause me to make choice C over A or B, since he ‘made my heart, my mind, AND MY WILL and my hopes they were all predestined and since he’s in control of ALL things??

I understand the part of making a choice, it’s caused, cause/effect/choice(s)/choose, got it, but did ‘I’ choose ‘C’ over A or B because God wanted me to choose C over A and B?....or not?  Ray said specifically ““God determined What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,

If he didn’t make me choose ‘C’, how so?

Either God is in control or he isn't.  If he isn't in control of ALL things, then like Ray said in his free-will series, 1/2 could choose to go one way and the other half the other way and God couldn't control squat.  

I'm not attempting to point a contradiction, I'm trying to understand if God is in control of ALL things.

[Kat]

Hi Gray,

Well we all know that God is sovereign and that means without Him there is nothing, period. He holds everything together by the power of His Spirit (Col 1:17), so it is an impossibility for anything to happen that He is not ultimately in control of. He doesn't just allow it, it is only by Him that anything can happen in the first place, He actually has to be the ultimate cause of it all.

In this world everything is made to be just as it is by God, in His sovereignty, by the power of His Spirit and therefore He is responsible. Now then, He made us too spiritual weak to resist sin, He made us that way so He doesn't have to directly make us do this or that, we want to, we volunteer, we do it without His having to directly do anything and therefore we are accountable. But He is in control of everything, so He knows what we will do and when and indeed made it to be so.

Here is an email and a excerpt from the Letter 2 to James Kennedy, for more on this.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility -----------------

[Ray Replies]

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray


http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ------------------------------------

" ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.
v

You see, to the theological peanut galleries of the world, if God is responsible for everything in His creation, then He couldn't be justified in burning billions in eternal Hell fire! But if they can make man responsible, then it's his own doing. But for man to be responsible, God would have had to have given him much greater powers than even our Lord ever possessed.

"Verily, verily, I am saying to you, The Son can not be doing anything of Himself ... " (John 5:19).

Are we greater than our own Lord? Answer:

" ... apart from Me you can do nothing." (Jn. 15:5).

Well, there it is. God has given man no such powers.

"It is not in man to direct his own steps" (Jer. 10:23).

I know that this verse is shocking to contemplate. It is a real ego deflator. People do not want their self-esteem brought that low. They love to talk humble pie, but they won't eat it. If God tells us we can't even "direct our own steps," pray what can we do by ourselves? The true and Scriptural answer is just as shocking:

" ... for apart from Me [Christ] you can do NOTHING" (John 15:5).

I know this truth is too high for most. Most don't really meditate on such verses. They certainly would never preach a sermon on them. They wouldn't be able to take credit for their own salvation anymore (if they actually believed these Scriptures). They would be forced to get rid of all their self worth. They couldn't feel all puffed up like the King of Assyria if they acknowledged God's total Sovereignty in their lives. They don't have to believe it now. God isn't breaking anyone's arm to accept these truths. But don't try to skillfully contradict these truths of the Scriptures, for that only makes you look silly.

I'll let you in on a secret, Dr. Kennedy. It's not God that theologians are trying to protect from responsibility so much as it is their own ego. They will cling to freewill at the expense of "burning billions" in their eternal hell fire.

If God is absolutely responsible for the salvation of all His creatures (and He absolutely is), then He is obligated to save them. He would have to save them. Their salvation would be assured. (Wouldn't that be a terrible thing for theologians and clergymen to contemplate?) In other words, since God is going to bring peace, happiness, and salvation to all of His creatures in Heaven and Earth, God is a real God. A God worthy of the name. A God to truly be GLORIFIED!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[DougE6]

Hi gk

when Ray said God does not directly cause those choices, he was talking in references to the evil choices that are done. God does not tempt us DIRECTLY.  James tells us that..

 Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

So who/what does the actual tempting? Your hearts lusts and spiritual forces and circumstances and opportunities. The Scriptures do show us that God does send spiritual beings to do what they have been designed to do, in conforming to Gods will and plan and direction.  like when God wanted Ahab killed and he asked for spirits to come up with a solution, that He intended to happen...

1Ki 22:19  And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20  And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21  And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22  And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23  Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

So did God control this situation? Yes . Did Gods plan succeed? Yes. Did God DO the actual tempting? No.

Verse 23 gives the bottome line...The LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

But the process still did not mean God FORCED anyone to do evil against their own wills, even the spirits volunteered...

"And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21  And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him"

So, God always gets His intention and plan done, and even if that plan includes evil choices by individuals, God does NOT directly tempt the chooser, and He had already put into place the extensive spiritual systems and forces, the hosts of heaven, that CAN be a cause (one of many) to ACT on ones individual heart,  and this works because we are  spiritually very weak and susceptible to these causes.

But more important than this, is the need  forr us to recognize our great individual spiritual weakness, to learn to hate it, and ask/beg./ seekGod to change our weak hearts to be conformed to the heart of Jesus.

So if it is NOT in the plan of God it ain't gonna happen, and He steers everything as He can cantrol all causes, whether that is a spiritual cause, or circumstances being what they are, , and fully knowing how your heart will choose/respond. 

But I do not understand why so much angst is poured over this. I myself, am much more focused on my own individual heart, my own individual heart, am I gowing spirituakly or not? Am I getting spiritually stronger or not? Who cares how God accomplishes this. I want it to be accomplished, make me spiritually strong!!

[G. Driggs]

But God does not directly do this. He is responsible,

but He does not directly cause those choices.”

^^^^^^(how is this possible if God is in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING???)^^^^^^
Or, maybe Ray is saying God ISN"T in control of everything.

How bout indirectly by creating Satan? It seems God is still in control whether or not he causes something directly or indirectly. But i dunno, just a thought.

 But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.

[Dave in Tenn]

I didn't know you were a military man--I thought you were a musician--not that you can't be both.  Either way, this is God's gig.  Someways we're the audience.  Someways we're the instrument.  Someways we're the music.  One day we may even be side-men.    

There's a flip-side to this too that doesn't get considered as much as whether God causes us to 'sin' when we ourselves want to.  I had hoped it would be more obvious in relating the scripture about Peter's betrayal.  Peter said, "I will not" and Jesus told him "You will."  Just because we set our wills to do the thing/make the choice which we know is right does not mean that we can 'will' ourselves to do it.  In every way, this process of salvation is by Grace through faith...and even the faith is a gift of God.  God is sovereign over our wills, no matter WHICH direction our wills want to go.

It wasn't until Peter looked back/remembered the words/will of Jesus that he understood.  Jesus IS Lord.  The answer is faith, and I know that religion has hollowed out that word to the point it is hard to re-grasp the significance of it.  The answer to no faith is faith.  The answer to insufficient faith is more faith.  We're not left ignorant about how faith enters us.

Anyways, TODAY is always the day to choose, when we're attempting to do the right thing.  We don't know until after the choice whether it was right or wrong, I believe.  God is never surprised, but we often are.  And it's not always (seldom?) a 'pleasant' surprise He has in store for us.  It doesn't 'puff-up' anybody who believes the Sovereignty of God.  It will humble us to death.      

      

[rj]

Hey gk

The way i see it, and i could be wrong, but in each of us is the lust of the flesh
the lust of the eye, and the pride of life, so how far we fall into depravity depends
on Gods plan for that lump of clay, as Ray says we are sinning machines.I hear people say
all the time, but for the grace of God there go i, but do they truly believe that it is God
that restrains that certain sin in their life. If im not the dirty old man then i know for
what ever reason God has restrained that sin in my life.

rj

[lilitalienboi16]

I must be so simple minded. I struggle to see the difficulty behind a soveriegn God in which the actions of the individuals does not equal a God who forces man to do evil or sin.

Simply put; God creator of all, satan, evil, man's weak heart. Hence He takes responsibility by dying for his creation and to show that in the face of al despair, His emense love for everyone of His precious children.

Man, in his created weakened state, consisting of a weak heart incapable of doing an ounce of good and a carnal mind volunteers to sin and in doing so, becomes accountable for his sin, not having been forced to do it or tempted of God for when he does commit such acts of evil, in his heart he had fully wanted to do it. He wanted to make the evil choice all on his own,  (And it was man making the choice!! No one else!) all it took was the right circumstance for the devoid of light that is mans heart, to show its true nature.

In wanting a grand family, the Lord knew this was the absolute best way to do it. To subject His precious children to evil. Oh how it breaks our Fathers heart, I'm sure. It is no easy thing to wacth loved ones struggle and suffer. For the Father knows that to be His children we must possess His characteristics. In this mortal shell we carry the characteristics of our parents in the form of DNA, genetic make up. But how does one carry characterstics, traits, of a heavenly father in which a bond exists spiritually and not physically? Well, to share such divine characterstics which our Father posess, such as love, patience, kindness, long suffering, meakness, to be like Him, we have to experience the evil that developes such Godly traits. We need the concept of evil to even comprehend what good is, and God is good! We need the darkness to know the light! We need to see and experience the act of suffering to understand what it means to be joyous, to have joy. If God could give us all these abstract qualities in the snap of a finger, I think He would, but then again can one give patience in the snap of a finger if by very nature patience requires waiting for often times, longer then desired periods? Its not liuke love, meakness, joy, patience, are like a box of chocolate you can just give to someone. Besidrs, if God gave you everything you wanted all the time but never spent time with you, would you not start to doubt His love? After all, if our earthly parents gave us things all the time but never spent time with us, we'd all start to wonder if they even loved us in the first place. Because when we suffer, and endure these things, we know God is with us, always and we feel Him near.

In closing.. I think everything is as it should be, with good logcial reason behind it. This is the absolute best way for our Father to be just that, a Father and for us to benefit thmost because remember, He is always always always acting in OUR best interest. Talk about love eh?

God bless,

Alex

P.S. That was just my humble honest two cents about all this.

[GaryK]

Then obviously I’m over-thinking this whole matter.  I like things simple, straightforward, without mystery as to the author should matters need investigating after the fact.  Obviously this is not a matter that can be contained as such.

Taking Peters example:

Peter willed to not leave the lord’s side, the lord knew Peter’s will, but that wasn’t of plan and purpose.  God did not want Peter to choose his own will but the will of god.  What did the lord do?  He created circumstances (men with the intent to kill), the cause, to produce a change in Peters will, fear, the effect.   Why?   To fulfill God’s purpose.  Did Peter understand what had happened?  He knew about fear, and he could connect the fear with the temptation to run.  Did he know at that time that it was god’s will that he run?  Peter, at that point, changed his will to match that of the lords will.    Peter chose, but God was responsible for the outcome of Peter’s decision.   Peter is accountable, God is responsible for the result of the decision, run Peter run.  Peter chose, the choice, what god wanted him to choose.  God makes us choose the way we do by creating the right circumstances.

That is as simple to me as drawing a line in the sand with a crooked stick.

God makes things happen how he wants them to happen, and that includes creating the circumstances to influence spiritually weakened human beings to CHOOSE as God requires them to choose.  The human being chooses (accountability) but god’s purpose will be fulfilled (responsibility).   That includes rapists raping.  Circumstances from god beget conditions that produces maggots to prey.  They may make the decision from a weak heart, but it’s a weak heart and a weak will that god produced by circumstances to fulfill his purpose.   God influences mankind to make the decisions he wants and sometimes we scratch our heads wondering why the choices that we made……were made….but make absolutely no sense on a clear day, usually by hindsight.

If god picks and chooses how he wants some lives to be, that’s one thing.  But the scripture says ALL mankind he watches over and directs their steps.  That includes everyone and every decision to make a step to fulfill gods’ purpose.  Otherwise I see holes and lies.

Look, I’ve beat this thing to death and it’s obvious, even to me now, that I am unable to think outside the rut.  So be it.   As pathetic as it may sound, I suppose my fist will remain in the air shaking at god until he either flattens me like a pancake, or opens my spiritual eyes.  I’m reminded of Jacob wrestling with the angel.  It’s not that I don’t agree with his plan, who am I?....and this isn’t about sinning, or free-will.  It’s about putting the perspective back to what is what and the way I see it is that God has a plan that includes human beings sinning and causing atrocities to no end.  He frames evil and cause some to be good folk and some to be evil.  How else could his plan be fulfilled?    How else will we learn righteousness?   The way I see it, when Ray says things are pre-determined, that doesn't mean some here, some there.....it means everything to God's will.
 
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi gk,

I think like you. Yes, it is very simple. If I believe all the scriptures and I believe there is no free will, and if God caused Jesus Christ to not sin, then God causes sinners to sin. I don't see anyway around it.

I read the statement God does not force us to sin, because by saying this would imply that we didn't want to sin in the first place, yet we are sinning machines, which is true. But in the scriptures clearly we see examples of God changing people heart to fulfill his purpose, the example you gave of Peter is one, and of Pharaoh as well, he wanted to let the Israelites go but God "hardened his heart" over and over, Pilat didn't want to crucify Jesus, but he did it because of the Jews.  Paul said this:

     Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
     Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
     Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Is evil man killing a little child a greater evil than 10s of thousands die in a natural disaster? and God says " shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? "

So I do think God causes sinners to sin, after all God is the one that made the sinners. but God is not evil in doing this. I do take great comfort in Isaiah 55:8-9, there is so much we can't comprehend yet. But we are not left without hints, in the scriptures, and in the things made. And these hints helped me perceive and find peace and rest in our God who is great and good far exceeding my understanding of Him.

First, the book of Job, here is the hint, God gives, God takes away, then God gives it back, and He gives it back so much (infinitely) better, so much (infinitely) more:

     Job 42:12  So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning

To me that is not just the story of Job, it is the story of the whole humanity, the whole creation. We are subjected to vanity, to endure "light affliction, which is but for a moment" for the glory ALL are destined to receive:

    2Co 4:17   For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

 If we look at all the atrocities in the whole history collectively, it is indeed endless, insumountable, but if we look at each individual's sufferings, it is indeed framed (limited) by God, death delivers all from all evil. As Ray pointed out before, God can take a life, He can also raise the dead. In fact He only takes away to give back what would be infinitely better.  The present evil serves God's great purpose. This life will pass away, whether we live to be 100 or die an infant, from eternity's point of view it is but a vapor for a little time:

     Jas 4:14  For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

If this life is it, is all we can hope for, then indeed this creation is most miserable, it would have been better if God never created it. But it is NOT. This is only the beginning. Think this life only as the first station of a journey that will continue for eternity. Everything doesn't end here, and there is hope and happy ending for all. 

Another hint I take is from the theater. Think of God as the writer of a grand play. If I watch a play that has evil in it, I would not assume the writer himself is evil. I recognize it is a necessary part of the plot, everything leads to the grand results of the drama. And the results of our drama is: God will be all in all.

Just my 2 cents.

Absolutely gorgeous!!! Great post! You said it well!

[lilitalienboi16]

To and my final humble thoughts on this subject;

Bible Cliff notes;

1. Man was created with a weak heart. (He didn't make our hearts evil, He made them weak, big difference.)
2. God created this weak heart. (Responsible)
3. When man is tempted, unless God give that man the strength to resist the temptation, man will volunteer to sin and when he does, He absolutely in his heart wanted to sin. So he really is making the choice without being forced to sin. (Accountable)
4. There is a difference between God's will (Pharoe let my people go!) and His plan to achieve that will. (Hardening pharoe's heart so that pharoe won't let his people go.)

Important to note;

Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

Pharaoh resisted God's will, but he could not resist His PLAN! Ray talks about this very point. People resist God's will every day!! God willl's alot of things right now that don't seem to be anywhere near coming to fruition, but through His plan, He will accomplish His every desire. His will. No one can resist God's plan

And as journey said, the ending to our drama, is that God will be all in all!

I'll have to add that screen writer comment to the one about the earth. Now i've got two great analogies! Thank you journey!

God bless,

Alex

P.S. Gk, i'm sorry if I offended you in my previous post, I was more thinking aloud as I read through this thread and your post happened to be the last one I read before I made my original comments. No offence was intended!

[GaryK]

Hi gk,

but God is not evil in doing this[/font].


 The present evil serves God's great purpose.

Another hint I take is from the theater. Think of God as the writer of a grand play. If I watch a play that has evil in it, I would not assume the writer himself is evil. I recognize it is a necessary part of the plot, everything leads to the grand results of the drama. And the results of our drama is: God will be all in all.Just my 2 cents.

Agreed.

I do not look at God as being evil, or sinful.   But he uses sin and evil for his purpose(s).   Ultimately, it is HIS purpose behind all sin and evil, otherwise, evil and sin is random without control............just random.  

Don't want to get in much farther over my head than I already have and I'm surprised a mod hasn't put the phasers on stun.     My brain feels like a STAR TREK earwig is crawling around in my head.

ps: Alex, I took no offense, think nothing more of it.

[odading]

I've been thinking of this...

Most here believe God because He is sovereign - God makes things happen how he wants them to happen - God behind of all what human do in daily activities.

In simple explanation, He already programmed each act of what every human will do in his daily activity - complete also with the exact time which when the act will be carry out. Yes, He did that because He is sovereign....

which turn-out... actually IT'S NOT sovereign at all for me.

If he already designed/programmed each move of every human, then it will be impossible to say that God also FOREKNOWN...

When Jesus said to Peter : "you will deny Me"...
is it because God made Peter to deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL NOT deny and God doesn't like it - so then God FORCE Peter to deny ?

It's strange,
God made human weak - YET He still need to "help" human to do sin ?
God said "don't eat that fruit" - YET (actually) His plan is that Eve was to eat the fruit
Maybe only me thinking : is this the kind of God is sovereign ?

regards.

[Dave in Tenn]

If he already designed/programmed each move of every human, then it will be impossible to say that God also FOREKNOWN...

If YOU caused something to happen, wouldn't YOU know in advance that it would?

When Jesus said to Peter : "you will deny Me"...
is it because God made Peter to deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL NOT deny and God doesn't like it - so then God FORCE Peter to deny ?

It's because God made Peter.  He knew Peter from the beginning.  He knew what Peter had to go through to become what God intends for Peter.  He brought about everything necessary in that moment for Peter to experience this failure.  What HAPPENED was what God intended.  No force was necessary.  Clearly, He foreknew.  He inspired the Prophecy in the Old Testament, and prophesied again directly to Peter (and the others).  

It's strange,
God made human weak - YET He still need to "help" human to do sin ?
God said "don't eat that fruit" - YET (actually) His plan is that Eve was to eat the fruit
Maybe only me thinking : is this the kind of God is sovereign ?

Yes, it's a strange work God is doing.  It makes no sense to the carnal mind.  If the end of His plan was simply punishment and reward, hell or fluffy clouds and gospel music...but it isn't.  All His people have gone through, are going through, and will go through an "experience of evil".  All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.  There is none righteous, no not one.  We can't do anything without Him.  We don't exist without Him.  That's what Sovereignty means to me.  It's not just another theological term to be argued about.  It's absolutely the meaning of Life itself.

Odading, God is sovereign not in name only in the same way Jesus is the Savior of the world not in name only.

As Ray said quoted earlier, some believe, some don't, and some are in the middle.  I hope this thread has been of help to all of us.  Nobody wants to stop discussion if it's fruitful, but it's not possible for 'the forum' to convince anybody of anything, nor is it it's purpose.  There's plenty here already to 'chew on', and plenty of references to Ray's teaching on the subject.  God will bring us all to know Him in His time.  Our faith is that ALL will proclaim with full understanding and Joy "Jesus is Lord" before He's finished His work.

I'm inclined to leave the thread open for a while longer, but we're reaching the end of what we are here to do, and able to do.  

Hang in there.  

[Kat]

Here is another couple sections from the series "The Myth of Free-Will Exposed." Maybe this will help a bit.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html -------------------------------

WHO HAS RESISTED GOD’S WILL?

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God’s plan:

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God’s plan and will and those who do not.

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.

So back to Paul’s questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That’s right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:

"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).
v

FOREKNOWLEDGE CONTRADICTS FREE WILL

This example of the disciples forsaking Jesus is so important to this study that we are going to stay with it a little longer. Can we believe that Jesus could have told His disciples the following:

"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night, but then again, maybe not all of you will be offended, seeing that all of you have a free will to will against My pronouncement…."

Or maybe this to Peter:

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."

Sounds a little silly when we look at it logically doesn’t it? Yet this IS the contention of those who believe in "free will." Maybe Peter will, but then again maybe Peter won’t, NOT EVEN GOD KNOWS FOR SURE. Almost sounds like blasphemy, doesn’t it? It is blasphemy.

To argue that when God prophesies, states, and intends that someone do a particular thing, that the person is still at liberty because of his supposed free will, to not do what God has said, is absurdity on the highest level. Yet this IS what the theory of free will demands.

The fact that God has a foreknowledge of everything proves that free will is an impossibility, as true free will could alter the future and therefore God could not have an absolute and true knowledge of the future. It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does, and yet state that God knows in advance the only possible choice that a person must make.

How can one believe that if God states that a person will make choice A, that he is nonetheless still at liberty to make choice B? Let me restate that: Can God say that you WILL make choice A, but you can make choice B?

Can God say that such and such, WILL happen but that it doesn’t need to happen? The disciples WILL forsake and deny Christ, but they have a free choice NOT to forsake and deny Him? God knows in advance that something WILL be a certain way, and yet it doesn’t have to be that way? Am I going too fast for anyone?

Not only does the theory of free will demand that man be able to think uncaused thoughts and performed uncaused tasks, but that he can in fact, do these uncaused things contrary to and in opposition to God’s preordained stated plan and purpose. He must be blind indeed, who cannot or will not see that such a haughty presumption lifts such an one’s ego to that of a veritable "god’ in his own heart and mind.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat