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is it important to change mind about freewill ?
lilitalienboi16:
To and my final humble thoughts on this subject;
Bible Cliff notes;
1. Man was created with a weak heart. (He didn't make our hearts evil, He made them weak, big difference.)
2. God created this weak heart. (Responsible)
3. When man is tempted, unless God give that man the strength to resist the temptation, man will volunteer to sin and when he does, He absolutely in his heart wanted to sin. So he really is making the choice without being forced to sin. (Accountable)
4. There is a difference between God's will (Pharoe let my people go!) and His plan to achieve that will. (Hardening pharoe's heart so that pharoe won't let his people go.)
Important to note;
Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"
Pharaoh resisted God's will, but he could not resist His PLAN! Ray talks about this very point. People resist God's will every day!! God willl's alot of things right now that don't seem to be anywhere near coming to fruition, but through His plan, He will accomplish His every desire. His will. No one can resist God's plan ;)
And as journey said, the ending to our drama, is that God will be all in all!
I'll have to add that screen writer comment to the one about the earth. Now i've got two great analogies! Thank you journey! :D
God bless,
Alex
P.S. Gk, i'm sorry if I offended you in my previous post, I was more thinking aloud as I read through this thread and your post happened to be the last one I read before I made my original comments. No offence was intended! :)
GaryK:
--- Quote from: Journey on November 23, 2011, 12:40:32 PM ---Hi gk,
but God is not evil in doing this[/font].
The present evil serves God's great purpose.
Another hint I take is from the theater. Think of God as the writer of a grand play. If I watch a play that has evil in it, I would not assume the writer himself is evil. I recognize it is a necessary part of the plot, everything leads to the grand results of the drama. And the results of our drama is: God will be all in all.Just my 2 cents.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.
I do not look at God as being evil, or sinful. But he uses sin and evil for his purpose(s). Ultimately, it is HIS purpose behind all sin and evil, otherwise, evil and sin is random without control............just random.
Don't want to get in much farther over my head than I already have and I'm surprised a mod hasn't put the phasers on stun. My brain feels like a STAR TREK earwig is crawling around in my head.
ps: Alex, I took no offense, think nothing more of it.
odading:
I've been thinking of this...
Most here believe God because He is sovereign - God makes things happen how he wants them to happen - God behind of all what human do in daily activities.
In simple explanation, He already programmed each act of what every human will do in his daily activity - complete also with the exact time which when the act will be carry out. Yes, He did that because He is sovereign....
which turn-out... actually IT'S NOT sovereign at all for me.
If he already designed/programmed each move of every human, then it will be impossible to say that God also FOREKNOWN...
When Jesus said to Peter : "you will deny Me"...
is it because God made Peter to deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL NOT deny and God doesn't like it - so then God FORCE Peter to deny ?
It's strange,
God made human weak - YET He still need to "help" human to do sin ????
God said "don't eat that fruit" - YET (actually) His plan is that Eve was to eat the fruit ???
Maybe only me thinking : is this the kind of God is sovereign ????
regards.
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: odading on November 23, 2011, 09:09:48 PM ---
If he already designed/programmed each move of every human, then it will be impossible to say that God also FOREKNOWN...
--- End quote ---
If YOU caused something to happen, wouldn't YOU know in advance that it would?
--- Quote ---When Jesus said to Peter : "you will deny Me"...
is it because God made Peter to deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL NOT deny and God doesn't like it - so then God FORCE Peter to deny ?
--- End quote ---
It's because God made Peter. He knew Peter from the beginning. He knew what Peter had to go through to become what God intends for Peter. He brought about everything necessary in that moment for Peter to experience this failure. What HAPPENED was what God intended. No force was necessary. Clearly, He foreknew. He inspired the Prophecy in the Old Testament, and prophesied again directly to Peter (and the others).
--- Quote ---It's strange,
God made human weak - YET He still need to "help" human to do sin ????
God said "don't eat that fruit" - YET (actually) His plan is that Eve was to eat the fruit ???
Maybe only me thinking : is this the kind of God is sovereign ????
--- End quote ---
Yes, it's a strange work God is doing. It makes no sense to the carnal mind. If the end of His plan was simply punishment and reward, hell or fluffy clouds and gospel music...but it isn't. All His people have gone through, are going through, and will go through an "experience of evil". All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. We can't do anything without Him. We don't exist without Him. That's what Sovereignty means to me. It's not just another theological term to be argued about. It's absolutely the meaning of Life itself.
Odading, God is sovereign not in name only in the same way Jesus is the Savior of the world not in name only.
As Ray said quoted earlier, some believe, some don't, and some are in the middle. I hope this thread has been of help to all of us. Nobody wants to stop discussion if it's fruitful, but it's not possible for 'the forum' to convince anybody of anything, nor is it it's purpose. There's plenty here already to 'chew on', and plenty of references to Ray's teaching on the subject. God will bring us all to know Him in His time. Our faith is that ALL will proclaim with full understanding and Joy "Jesus is Lord" before He's finished His work.
I'm inclined to leave the thread open for a while longer, but we're reaching the end of what we are here to do, and able to do.
Hang in there.
Kat:
Here is another couple sections from the series "The Myth of Free-Will Exposed." Maybe this will help a bit.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html -------------------------------
WHO HAS RESISTED GOD’S WILL?
So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God’s plan:
"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).
This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God’s plan and will and those who do not.
After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?
First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."
So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"
To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.
So back to Paul’s questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That’s right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:
"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).
v
FOREKNOWLEDGE CONTRADICTS FREE WILL
This example of the disciples forsaking Jesus is so important to this study that we are going to stay with it a little longer. Can we believe that Jesus could have told His disciples the following:
"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night, but then again, maybe not all of you will be offended, seeing that all of you have a free will to will against My pronouncement…."
Or maybe this to Peter:
"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."
Sounds a little silly when we look at it logically doesn’t it? Yet this IS the contention of those who believe in "free will." Maybe Peter will, but then again maybe Peter won’t, NOT EVEN GOD KNOWS FOR SURE. Almost sounds like blasphemy, doesn’t it? It is blasphemy.
To argue that when God prophesies, states, and intends that someone do a particular thing, that the person is still at liberty because of his supposed free will, to not do what God has said, is absurdity on the highest level. Yet this IS what the theory of free will demands.
The fact that God has a foreknowledge of everything proves that free will is an impossibility, as true free will could alter the future and therefore God could not have an absolute and true knowledge of the future. It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does, and yet state that God knows in advance the only possible choice that a person must make.
How can one believe that if God states that a person will make choice A, that he is nonetheless still at liberty to make choice B? Let me restate that: Can God say that you WILL make choice A, but you can make choice B?
Can God say that such and such, WILL happen but that it doesn’t need to happen? The disciples WILL forsake and deny Christ, but they have a free choice NOT to forsake and deny Him? God knows in advance that something WILL be a certain way, and yet it doesn’t have to be that way? Am I going too fast for anyone?
Not only does the theory of free will demand that man be able to think uncaused thoughts and performed uncaused tasks, but that he can in fact, do these uncaused things contrary to and in opposition to God’s preordained stated plan and purpose. He must be blind indeed, who cannot or will not see that such a haughty presumption lifts such an one’s ego to that of a veritable "god’ in his own heart and mind.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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