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Author Topic: More "free-will" questions.  (Read 4289 times)

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Dave in Tenn

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More "free-will" questions.
« on: November 25, 2011, 03:26:40 AM »

Whatever the 'answers' to these, I'm going to assume that God brought these possible situations about.

Has anybody ever wanted to sin, but could not?

Has anybody ever wanted to not sin, but could not not?

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

cheekie3

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 04:45:43 AM »

Dave -

I believe both Questions can be answered both yes and no; and it is all of God as our actions, words and heart's intentions are worked by Him.

Even in the Old Testament, some did Good Works and were counted as Righteous by the Lord God; as The Spirit if The Lord was upon them.

Is is not the same as some of us now; who pray to our Heavenly Father to stop us sinning and burn out of us all evil lustful selfish desires.

Or you could simply state that all of us are sinners doing evil for selfish reasons framed and limited by God until He Heals us of each particular sin.

I hope I undertstood what you are asking.

Regards, George.
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 01:08:41 PM »

yes, George.  I think you understand what I'm asking.  I just wanted to get away from thinking about hypothetical people and situations, and hear some 'real-life' examples.
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cjwood

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 08:19:40 PM »

ok dave, i will jump in the conversation.

to your two questions, i would answer honestly that:
#1.  i have never wanted to sin, but could not.  anytime i wanted to sin, i could; and oft would.    :-\  :(

#2.  yes, in so many different times of temptation i have wanted to not sin, but found i could not, of my own self, not want to sin. the carnal flesh of the beast we are, is always roaring about like a lion, looking to feed its' hunger. i cannot count the number of times i have called out to my Father to quiet the pangs of hunger from my flesh.  

whoop, there it is...

claudia
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 11:08:20 PM »

Thanks, Claudia.  I truly believe what the Lord requires of us is clear-eyed, unmitigated honesty based on Truth.  My religious past sometimes 'asked' this of people, but never to my memory 'recieved it' well.  I caught a lot of this disease and am hoping to recover. 

Sometimes I just get a little weary of talking about imaginary people and philosophical straw-men, and ache to get down to where real people can identify.  Maybe some more will want to chime in.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

odading

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 12:48:40 AM »

I've ever to wanted to sin.

I did it deliberately consciously without hesitate or any resistant if :
- when I hate someone
- when I get angry
- when I masturbate (pardon me)
- when I lie
- when I speed my car (then hit someone).

Times passed - in the long run
I don't feel the hate to that someone anymore
I don;t think to easily get angry is necessary anymore
I feel too old to regularly masturbate
I see no benefit in lying

Times passed - and in one at a time,
I did it again the list above, deliberately consciously without hesitate or any resistant.

Did I repent ?
If it made someone hurts - I repent.
If those points in the list made me myself miserable, it's all my fault : already knew the consequences but still did it....

then I learn, more responsible, etc.
Thank God for His Grace of life, I experience all the good and bad things.

regards,
odading.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 01:22:29 AM »

Odading, I'm sorry, but I did not understand the English in this statement:  I've ever to wanted to sin.  

Below that, you've given reasons why you may not have wanted to do a sin (or no longer wanted to do so) and managed to not do it--and examples of 'wanting' to sin, and being able.  The first situation is common to everyone "learning righteousness", though the reasons may vary.  The second one is common to every sinner who wants to sin...often (mostly? always?) they find themselves able.  Both of these are discussed fairly often and commonly experienced, at least to some.

What I'm asking is if anybody WITH A DESIRE to commit a sin has found themselves UNABLE to do what they desire.  And secondly, if there is anybody who did NOT want to commit a sin, but found themselves sinning anyway.  These 'scenarios' don't get discussed as much.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 01:51:16 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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DougE6

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 02:11:20 AM »

Hi Dave
I can answer you that in my life, God has DEFINITELY intervened sometimes when I WANTED to commit a sin, and He prevented me.  And I also can say, YES, MUCH MORE TO MY RECOLLECTION, and much more frequently I think, did I earnestly want to stop sinning in various ways, tried and tried, prayed and still did it, sometimes shortly thereafter, sought and sought,  and was unsuccessful...FOR A SEASON. I hesitate to say that I have victory  over any sin because God has shown me through this process just how weak and sinful I am; but I want to venture that once in a while  I take suddenly notice its been a long time since I have acted or done what used to control me and I just thank God because He eventually did answer my hearts petitions. I really wanted to see righteous fruit.

I told myself and God I don't want to die an old man someday, when my flesh is too weak to do anything, and THEN say..AHA! It works! I am free from sin! LOL ;D NO, NOW when I am still vital I want to be different, and feel changed; then I KNOW it is HIM and not just natural progression of aging making me a milder person. I am NOT saying  I am able to resist the temptation, that I have a stronger will or something like that; BUT THE TEMPTATIONS THAT COMPELLED ME SIMPLY NO LONGER EXISTS!  Like God rescued after enough wrestling took place.

The flesh has to die, if we are to inherit the Kingdom Of God. How and what this entails will be different(the process) for everybody. But I want to see the fruits of the spirit come forth in my life, and I want to see the works of the flesh diminish and diminish, until they seem like they are gone. That is my hearts desire, anyway.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 03:03:06 AM »

Thanks, Doug.  Now real-life testimony is building up that these scenarios, at the very least, seem to be possible.   
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2011, 04:55:30 AM »

Thanks, John.  Is this the Scripture you are referring to?

Jas 1:14-16  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.  Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Or this one (or both and/or more)?

Mat 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So the question is moot?  It's not possible to 'want to sin' without already having sinned?  

Does the clarification I gave Odading make any difference?  Has anybody with a desire to commit a sin found themselves UNABLE to do what they desire?

As I said, I'm going to assume no matter the answer that God brought this situation about.  I'm also going to assume you haven't had physical sexual relations with most of the women you've seen.   :)

I may be ready to drop the first question, and keep the second one, if I can get real-life, practical agreement.  Otherwise, it's just theology/philosophy to me.




  
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 05:09:29 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 05:50:57 AM »

Thanks, John.  Is this the Scripture you are referring to?

Jas 1:14-16  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.  Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Or this one (or both and/or more)?

Mat 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So the question is moot?  It's not possible to 'want to sin' without already having sinned?  

Does the clarification I gave Odading make any difference?  Has anybody with a desire to commit a sin found themselves UNABLE to do what they desire?

As I said, I'm going to assume no matter the answer that God brought this situation about.  I'm also going to assume you haven't had physical sexual relations with most of the women you've seen.   :)

I may be ready to drop the first question, and keep the second one, if I can get real-life, practical agreement.  Otherwise, it's just theology/philosophy to me.




  


Those are excellent scriptures you quoted and are on point.  But the specific scripture I had in mind was Mark 7:20-23.

Jesus said, "What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean.  For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.  All these things come from inside and make a man unclean." (NIV)

So, I think the first question is a moot point.  By wanting to sin, we have already sinned from our heart, in spirit, before the physical act occurs.  Which is why God's consuming fire must cleanse us from the inside out, from our hearts.

 ;D ;D ;D   No, I have not had sexual relations with most of the women I've seen.  Although my carnal, natural self would like to.   ;D ;D ;D

In fact, under the Law of Moses, I would be considered a righteous, holy man.  It is only under the higher, stricter requirements that Jesus expounded of the New Covenant that I am exposed as the sinner I am due to my weak, sinful heart that only Jesus can heal.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 05:53:35 AM by John from Kentucky »
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odading

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 06:28:44 AM »

Odading, I'm sorry, but I did not understand the English in this statement:  I've ever to wanted to sin.  
I'm very sorry for my mistake and misunderstood your question.  :-[

Quote
What I'm asking is if anybody WITH A DESIRE to commit a sin has found themselves UNABLE to do what they desire.
Did you mean (for example in a real life) something like when someone was just about to stab with a knife whom he hates - then suddenly he's unable to do it ?

Well it never happen to me.... based on my experience - I'm always ABLE to do it when I have a desire to commit a sin.

Quote
And secondly, if there is anybody who did NOT want to commit a sin, but found themselves sinning anyway.
For example - if the situation like this :
in my mind I wanted to "play" with one girl - with that actually I've already sin, though hasn't committed yet (do the action) - so I resisted the temptation to do the action. (doesn't want to commit a sin) ...but finally I found myself "playing" with this girl anyway.

so my answer is (in the above example) :
I don't think I will do the action (playing with the girl or killing someone) consider there'll be too much risk I get :)

But in any case, it turn out that I did the action - then IMO,
I'm quite sure that I did it in a FULLY AWARE that I'm committing a sin.

with that "fact" above - it's difficult for me to reason : I swear ... I didn't want to make "my dreams come  true" by doing the action what's in my mind ... but oh well... I don't know... it;s just happened ... :)

Hope this is a proper answer which "fit" your question :)

regards,
odading.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 06:31:29 AM by odading »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2011, 04:13:28 PM »

No worries, Odading.  Even native speakers misunderstand each other.

I can clear-eyed and honestly say there have been many times in my life when I have wanted to sin.  If John is correct, then I already did--no matter what my 'body' did.  But there have also been numerous times when I found myself unable to bring it to completion.  I've made plans, spent money, enjoyed the anticipation, revelled in the excitement of the temptation, had every hope and intention of 'sinning', but been stopped.

If ALL is of God, then it doesn't matter whether what stopped me in any of those situations seemed or felt mundane or miraculous.

Most of these, I'd be too embarassed to mention in detail.  One time, I've already shared.  When I first saw the google ad for B-T, I was not in a 'religious' or 'bible-oriented' forum.  Though discussion there was broad, the purpose of that forum was for sinners to get together and learn how to sin more effectively and efficiently.  Sheer boredom caused me to follow the link in the google ad and I intended to come and spend a few minutes laughing at this Ray Smith character.  I think I can say I had already 'committed this sin in my heart' even though I did not know it was a sin.  

I could not do what I came to do.

I guess that's my answer to question 1 while it's still on the table.   :)        

    
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2011, 04:17:42 PM »

Hi Dave

Just a few thoughts.....temptation is not sin. Jesus was tempted.

The heart that is weak will look for occasions to sin as well expounded by the Psalms telling of those who are swift to run to mischief Proverbs 6: 16.

Appreciating the beauty of a woman or the strength of a man is not the same as taking the imagination and running with it into the fantasy of adultery or into the shame of guilty self gratification.

Casting all imaginings down to the captivity of Christ might well mean the liberty in Christ to enjoy without guilt what God creates without apology.


I think it is the lot of humanity, at some time, to enjoy the experience of the adrenalin rush of risk and the seduction of danger in the daring allure of temptation, unti9l such time as it is learned that temptation is like the offer to drink sea water to quench a thirst!

 We all have fallen short of the glory of God.  To do so, is the human condition. To overcome is the spiritual, and prevention is of God.
 
I went out on a Sat. night after I had about 3-4 shots of Scotch. In my new Cadillac Coupe DeVille and I was looking for trouble... didnít find it. Iím serious....God prevented it.      http://forums.bibletruths.com/index.php?action=search2

To ask if I have wanted to sin and didnít, or if I have not wanted to sin, and did, for me, is the same as asking if I am human. Humankind is the 666. No temptation has taken anyone but such as is common to humankind.

That God is changing physical, carnal humanity into His Spiritual Image, is His Will, that is being done.

Arc
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2011, 05:43:27 PM »

Thanks, Deb.  I reckon Ray is part of the 'anybody' in the questions.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2011, 05:11:04 AM »




Ray is someone. We are all, someone.

We are all some of ONE, in the purpose and plan of God, who IS ONE, out of whom all IS One. ~ :)

Sound like gobbledygook...ha...lol...okay! ~ ;D

Arc
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darren

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2011, 05:50:52 AM »

Question:  If I looks at a women and I say to my friend in that split second, Man I like to blank her. The moment is over and then forgotten as quickly as it came out of my mouth. knowing that it would never happen anyway did I have real lust in my heart. Did I sin. I guess my question is what is the meaning of  lusting at someone. are the words lusting at, and lusting for have different meanings and does both words come out of my heart.

Darren
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cheekie3

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2011, 09:26:09 AM »

Darren -

Is it not what the intent of our hearts that determine whether we lust or not:

1. If a man thinks that the woman is beautiful that to me is not lusting after her.
2. If a man thinks that the woman is beautiful and desires to be with her - then to me that is lust.

Regards, George.
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2011, 04:01:21 PM »

Darren, 'looking at a woman to lust'.  Can you look at a woman NOT to lust?  Lord, I hope you can.  I think you already know at what point 'looking' becomes lust.

What you related may not be 'lust' in truth.  It may be locker-room talk--what the scripture would call "filthy communication".  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 04:17:11 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: More "free-will" questions.
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2011, 05:11:42 PM »

Deb, I think this is the 'quote' you tried to link to (From the Repentance and Guilty of ALL transcripts. :

How many of you have ever come this close (thumb and index fingers together) to death and was just instantly spared? How many came really close to doing something really dumb and embarrassing, then something happened and spared you.

I went out on a Sat. night after I had about 3-4 shots of Scotch. In my new Cadillac Coupe DeVille and I was looking for trouble... didnít find it. Iím serious. I was ready, had my best blazer on, had my Austrian Kangaroo boots on and went out cruising. You know to bars or whatever looking for trouble, you know what I mean. Didnít find it. It was so frustrating to go home alone, what am I a social failure, you know. But thank God. 

Thank God, there was maybe many, many times when I was hell bent on destruction and God prevented me. Twice, not once but twice, I pulled up at a intersection and I looked to the left and I looked to the right and I pulled out. Swoosh... I mean we were so close the paint changed color, without hitting. I thought, well I just died. God except for Your grace, thatís when I died, right there. Twice I did that. One time I looked and I floored it, so I was coming on across there. Swoosh... I mean I was shaking. I just died. Except for the grace of God, I just died. How many times did that happen when we donít even know that it is close, you see?

So donít take credit for the fact that you didnít molest children and kill them. You werenít lead down that evil alley. You werenít born into the family that would cause you to go down that alley. You werenít always frustrated to the point where you were just hell bent on just doing some evil foul thing like that. God prevented it.

God makes vessels of honor and dishonor. He makes vessels of dishonor and then has mercy on the other vessels. Some He hardens and some He has mercy on. He has had mercy on everybody in this room. If you have never killed anybody or molested children or done any of these horrendous things. He has great mercy on your life. Now we need to be thankful for that and not assume we donít have very much to repent of. We have to repent of what? "O man," thatís what we have to repent of.


So, yes, for the purposes of my questions, Ray is "anybody" by his own testimony.  He even asked the question himself. 

 

 
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