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[GaryK]

Howdy.

There’s only two good things that have come out of Kentucky........but I’m going to throw JFK some credit anyway. 

In another recent thread John from Kentucky stated that Job was self-righteous. Didn’t see that one coming John.  I’ve been thinking on that.   My guess is ‘self-righteous’ is much more than meets the eye, or mind.   I’ll bet that’s a deep study.   If Ray’s written on it, specifically, give me a link, anyone.

Self-righteousness got me to thinking about Matthew 5:3:

King James Version (KJV)
 3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

In search, Isaiah 66:2 came up as well:

Isaiah 66:2

King James Version (KJV)
 2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

contrite

adjective

1. caused by or showing sincere remorse.

2. filled with a sense of guilt and the desire for atonement; penitent: a contrite sinner.
________________________________________

Origin:
1300–50; Middle English contrit  (< Anglo-French ) < Latin contrītus  worn down, crushed,



Poor in spirit, contrite.   Interesting.   I’m not talking about walking around beating ourselves up physically or emotionally, although I’ve done it, but that was more out of regret for some of the stupidest decisions in life a man could make.  Everyone’s done it, I suppose, unless you’re self-righteous.   But that too, based on the many discussions here, those ‘decisions’ were of God as well.  I don’t have a solid grip on that still.   Must be a package deal and I’m too cheap to buy it. 

But regret has to be different than poor in spirit. 

If we listen to Ray, and we do, …..well some of you do….what can man do about it?  I say nothing, be it that no one has free-will and ‘you didn’t choose me, I chose you’.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.  But, if Jesus gives us the trials to produce the ‘fruit’, then maybe the ‘poor in spirit’ is a direct result, or complimentary to the fruit.  Maybe it’s not?  Or then again it may be part of the ‘and I turned and saw’ package that Ray talks on, and I’ll put bet on tearing down ‘self-righteousness’ in a man is like melting down the iron under the mountains on those 1/3’s being burned and pillaged. 

Just what is, exactly, ‘self-righteousness’?  I think it can get deep into a man without him knowing it and I’m inclined to accept that none of it can be burned away unless we stare it in the face at some point.  I’ll bet that’s hard to do, but I'll also bet doing so can put you on your knees hard, spiritually speaking.

Just what is, exactly, ‘poor in spirit’?   I’m getting the feeling there’s more to poor in spirit than regret or being a good Samaritan.  Even an atheist can be a good Samaritan.  Like Ray said, maybe even Hitler was kind to his dog or his mother.  So that’s not it.

How does a man go about defeating self-righteousness, what is it?......receiving a contrite heart and attitude, a poor spirit?   What is it? 

I’d like to have one of those.   

[mharrell08]

Just what is, exactly, ‘poor in spirit’?

1 Cor 1:26-28  For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are...

[newgene87]

When I think of "self-righteousness" one of Jesus parables come to mind

 Luk 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which TRUSETED IN THEMSELVES that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am NOT AS OTHER MEN are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Then speaks to me thinking in oneself that they are righteous or self-righteous: it seems that will produce the cause to despise others or even judge them. The publican just abased himself and considered himself in a sense, "poor in the spirit"  , pleading for Gods mercy. Maybe that helps :-)

[JohnMichael]

Hey GK,

This may provide some insight. It's taken right out of the book of Job. To me, this gives a very good inclination to what it means to be self-righteous.

(GNB)
Job 32:1  Because Job was convinced of his own innocence, the three men gave up trying to answer him.
Job 32:2  But a bystander named Elihu could not control his anger any longer, because Job was justifying [H6663] himself and blaming God.

[H6663: tsadaq - to be right, to justify self, to stand righteous in one's own eyes]

Job 33:8  Now this is what I heard you say:
Job 33:9  "I am not guilty; I have done nothing wrong. I am innocent and free from sin.
Job 33:10  But God finds excuses for attacking me and treats me like an enemy.
Job 33:11  He binds chains on my feet; he watches every move I make."
Job 33:12  But I tell you, Job, you are wrong. God is greater than any human being.
Job 33:13  Why do you accuse God of never answering our complaints?

Job 34:5  Job claims that he is innocent, that God refuses to give him justice.
Job 34:6  He asks, "How could I lie and say I am wrong? I am fatally wounded, but I am sinless."
Job 34:7  Have you ever seen anyone like this man Job? He never shows respect for God.

Job 40:1  Job, you challenged Almighty God; will you give up now, or will you answer?
Job 40:2  (SEE 40:1)
Job 40:3  I spoke foolishly, LORD. What can I answer? I will not try to say anything else.
Job 40:4  (SEE 40:3)
Job 40:5  I have already said more than I should.
Job 40:6  Then out of the storm the LORD spoke to Job once again.
Job 40:7  Now stand up straight and answer my questions.
Job 40:8  Are you trying to prove that I am unjust--- to put me in the wrong and yourself in the right?

Job 40:9  Are you as strong as I am? Can your voice thunder as loud as mine?
Job 40:10  If so, stand up in your honor and pride; clothe yourself with majesty and glory.
Job 40:11  Look at those who are proud; pour out your anger and humble them.
Job 40:12  Yes, look at them and bring them down; crush the wicked where they stand.
Job 40:13  Bury them all in the ground; bind them in the world of the dead.
Job 40:14  Then I will be the first to praise you and admit that you won the victory yourself.

Job 42:1  Then Job answered the LORD.
Job 42:2  I know, LORD, that you are all-powerful; that you can do everything you want.
Job 42:3  You ask how I dare question your wisdom when I am so very ignorant. I talked about things I did not understand, about marvels too great for me to know.

Job 42:6  So I am ashamed of all I have said and repent in dust and ashes.


In the southern states, we have an expression that goes, "It's time for us to have a Come-to-Jesus meeting." Basically, that expression means it's time to pay the piper and face/answer for what one has been doing. Job, here, definitely had one of those.

The opposite of self-righteous would be poor in spirit, or humble. Job was humbled at the end (chapter 42). It was after this that the Lord restored Job and blessed him above what he had before.

Hope this helps.

In Him,
John

[Gina]

Hi, gk

Yours are great questions, lots of fitting responses, and it looks like Marques totally nailed it.

I will borrow from JFK and say, "I don't know!" but I think I can take an educated guess, and I would say:  IMHO (HA-HA! lol), self-righteousness looks like, who else?  

The pharisees and their ilk.  

Not to sound condescending or anything but, I've read many of your posts as a lurker (I've read a lot of everyone's), gk, and you come across to me as a truthseeker/believer in the truest sense of the word.

Re self-righteousness, this verse of scripture in Isaiah came to mind:

(Amplified bible)
Isaiah 50:11  Behold, all you [enemies of your own selves] who attempt to kindle your own fires [and work out your own plans of salvation], who surround and gird yourselves with momentary sparks, darts, and firebrands that you set aflame!--walk by the light of your self-made fire and of the sparks that you have kindled [for yourself, if you will]! But this shall you have from My hand: you shall lie down in grief and in torment.

I'm not sure if that fits with the pharisees.  I'd be interested in others' thoughts on that.  I can't think of another witness.

Your question re poor in spirit is something that I've wondered about many times.  That's a great topic and thank you for bringing it up.  I always think of these verses when I think of poor in spirit (I'm sure there are many others that may be more fitting, but here ya go...):

OT
Proverbs 13:7
One man considers himself rich, yet has nothing [to keep permanently]; another man considers himself poor, yet has great [and indestructible] riches.

NT
Matthew 6:19
Do not gather and heap up and store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust and worm consume and destroy, and where thieves break through and steal.  

20But gather and heap up and store for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust nor worm consume and destroy, and where thieves do not break through and steal;

21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

And this one:

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and in their position as believers and to inherit the kingdom which He has promised to those who love Him?

Anyhooo...  thanks for the challenge! lol  Again, great topic, and I hope you find the answers you're looking for soon, gk.  

[Deborah-Leigh]

A beautiful shiny question with wonderful warm and embracing answers to you gk! ~

Mat 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit! For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

What is the " poor in spirit?"

Mat 5:4  .... they that mourn!
Mat 5:5  .... the meek! 
Mat 5:6  .... they who hunger and thirst after righteousness! 
Mat 5:7  .... the merciful!
Mat 5:8  .... the pure in heart!
Mat 5:9  .... the peacemakers!
Mat 5:10 ....they who have been persecuted for righteousness sake! 
Mat 5:11 .... you when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for My sake.
Mat 5:12 .... the prophets who were before you.
Mat 5:13 .... the salt of the earth
Mat 5:14 .... the light of the world.

Continue then, to ~ 

Mat 5:16 .... Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven.

Arc

[Gina]

Beautiful, Deb!  Praise the Lord for giving you a word aptly spoken. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Yes ~ 

Thank You.

[acomplishedartis]

Proverbs 13:7
One man considers himself rich, yet has nothing [to keep permanently]; another man considers himself poor, yet has great [and indestructible] riches.


The ones whom consider themselves poor in spirit, in reality are not as poor in spirit as the majority of religious people that believe themselves to be rich in spirit when in reality they are truly poor and naked.   What if it is just a mater of perspectives. Depending with whom we compare our selves, because in comparison with God, our light is like darkness...right?
However, I guess that the main button line is that we are to consider our selves poor in spirit always...

The more I think about it, the concepts of poor and rich are both a matter of personal perception.
       (and I do have a general small idea of how poor am I)

[Gina]

Right, Moises.  To be poor in spirit is to be rich in heavenly treasures.

It reminds me of that saying:  Too much in the stomach, not enough in the head.
Meaning when we have enough to fill our proverbial bellies, we don't use our brains as wisely.

Here's a gem I discovered recently:

Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' Vanity asks the question, 'Is it popular?' But, conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but one must take it because one's conscience tells one that it is right." --  Martin Luther King Jr.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Great quote Gina...

Like...a bird doesn't sing because it's got an answer. A bird sings because it's got a song... ~

Keep singing Lady!

[onelovedread]

Maybe being poor in spirit also means that we recognize that we can do nothing good without God who created in us Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Perhaps, when we come to realize that we are saved by grace and not of our own efforts, when we come to realize that there is nothing good in our fleshly selves unless God empowers us through His Spirit, and that we can do nothing of ourselves, maybe then we will see how destitute we truly are. Could that be what it means to be poor in spirit?

[Kat]

Hi gk,

Mat 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I think the key to understanding this Scripture is what Jesus meant by the "poor in spirit." What is this "spirit" He speaks of? Well Paul explains this to us in 1 Corinthians when he talks of "the spirit of man" and "the spirit of the world."

1Co 2:11  For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
v. 12  But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
v. 13  These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
v. 14  But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

When you think about that Jesus is speaking of the carnal/fleshly spirit of man and this world, you can understand why He says those poor/destitute/lacking in that will be the kingdom.

John 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[GaryK]

These responses are all good and rich.  And they’re all appreciated.   No doubt, it’s good for a man to know these words you’ve all reminded.

Ray devoted 4 books to the matter of free-will, one subject, 4 books.  To borrow from Ray, “must be important”.  And then if that wasn’t enough he devoted 1 book to one subject, the beast.  Is it possible to live these words you’ve all written here without first meeting the beast?  I say no.  And I don’t mean just agreeing with Ray in a way like “yep, you’re right Ray, I can see where I’m a beast”.    Is it possible to have that poor spirit and diminish the self-righteousness without first meeting the beast?

I don’t think so.

But how many of us have said, and say, yes, respond with the right verses and words, but haven’t actually……really….. met the beast?   

I haven't, and I know it.   And I'm scared to death of it.   

But if you have, then good for you, it's your leadership that makes the difference.   But without it, how are we any better than the church we all skulk at when they’re preaching their hollow messages?   I don’t see any difference.   I think a man has to muster up the courage to get down in the trenches and see the beast before he can even begin to understand what ‘poor in spirit’ really is.   I think Paul did just that.  So did Job.  So did many others of old-time.  So did David:

Psalm 13

Psalm 13[a]
    For the director of music. A psalm of David.
 
1 How long, LORD? Will you forget me forever?
   How long will you hide your face from me?
2 How long must I wrestle with my thoughts
   and day after day have sorrow in my heart?

I’m still inclined to accept that no-one can live a ‘poor spirit’ without first experiencing a spiritual drought of enormous, colossal devastation.   It’s not healthy, but it’s advantageous in the longest run.  I still have the tendency to believe that none of these verses will take their home in a man’s heart until that man recognizes there is a beast, has met the beast, looked him straight in the eyes and come to realize, inside, deep down in the soul of that man that that beast is much more wicked than first thought, much more powerful and can defeat easily that man’s best of intentions, and craftier than any wisdom in words that the man has learned and can repeat at will.  In other words, when a man (or woman) realizes there’s nothing in this world that’s worthwhile, just like Solomon says, and just wants to lay down and curl up into a tight un-born baby wad and go to sleep for a long time, for no other reason than to experience true rest, I think only then can one realize how truly spiritually helpless one is.  I’ll bet it's humbling.  And I think it’s then that a man realizes he can’t get there on his own and he must call out for help to the only possible one that can give the help, to open the cell door of that spiritual prison Ray talks on.

Sorry, I don’t mean to preach, not my intention.  Just letting out a little bit of heart here, that’s all.  Hope you don't mind.

[Gina]

It sounds like you've met the beast or you wouldn't be terrified of him.    But then I thought -- wait a minute -- are we supposed to be dwelling on that or the One who is greater?  Greater is He Who is in you than he who is in the world.  It's good to have a healthy estimation of ourselves, but I thought we were supposed to be thinking/dwelling/meditating on:

Philippians 4:8
...whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them].

It's hard to do, that's for sure.  I hear, practice makes perfect. 

[Kat]

Hi gk,

What you have said is absolutely right! That beast within each and every one of us is the most horrorable thing and you just go along living with it and thinking that's just the way it is and it is the way that the would is. But at some point God shows you who you truly are and you began to despise what you see. I have looked on the face of the beast that I am and believe me, my own actions have proved it to me. I struggled many years with not understanding why I would do such things, but you can't deny reality. Not until after I had been studying the truth for some time did I begin to find the answer and rest from my own troubling pass behavior.  

It is quite earth shaking and quite devastating to realize that there is no deed of wickedness that you wouldn't comment if in the right circumstances. That is exactly what God wants us to realize and I believe like you said it takes actually experiencing it and God will give you that experience. Yes we all have to know, through experience, that we are a carnal fleshly ravaging wild beast, it is quite humbling when you fully understand it.

God's Spirit is the ONLY hope any of us have to be rescued from this body of dead.

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
v. 25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[GaryK]

It sounds like you've met the beast or you wouldn't be terrified of him.    But then I thought -- wait a minute -- are we supposed to be dwelling on that or the One who is greater?  Greater is He Who is in you than he who is in the world.  It's good to have a healthy estimation of ourselves, but I thought we were supposed to be thinking/dwelling/meditating on:

Philippians 4:8
...whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them].

It's hard to do, that's for sure.  I hear, practice makes perfect. 

Hi Gina, and you're right.

But.

What about this view of the prism?

Does what you say make the beast any less true, any less ravaging?

To think on it isn't necessarily 'dwelling' on it, but, if that's where God puts our heart 'for a time'..........doesn't that do exactly what it is he wants?........makes him greater, more so, than we ever first believed?

Sounds necessary, at least to me it does. 


 

[GaryK]

Hi gk,

What you have said is absolutely right! That beast within each and every one of us is the most horrorable thing and you just go along living with it and thinking that's just the way it is and it is the way that the would is. But at some point God shows you who you truly are and you began to despise what you see. I have looked on the face of the beast that I am and believe me, my own actions have proved it to me. I struggled many years with not understanding why I would do such things, but you can't deny reality. Not until after I had been studying the truth for some time did I begin to find the answer and rest from my own troubling pass behavior.  

It is quite earth shaking and quite devastating to realize that there is no deed of wickedness that you wouldn't comment if in the right circumstances. That is exactly what God wants us to realize and I believe like you said it takes actually experiencing it and God will give you that experience. Yes we all have to know, through experience, that we are a carnal fleshly ravaging wild beast, it is quite humbling when you fully understand it.

God's Spirit is the ONLY hope any of us have to be rescued from this body of dead.

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
v. 25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you Kat.   When I go there, I'll look for your name etched in a rock or a board, then I'll know a friend has been there before me and I'll remember there is hope.   Hmmm, sounds strikingly familiar, doesn't it?     

[Deborah-Leigh]

gk you are feeling the pain.

From personal experiece, when once pain was so intense, it clicked the mind into a new thought ~  no matter what any human being ever does, can ever do or has ever done, I would not elect pain to be the remedy, THEN...the Mercy of kindness, compassion, forgiveness and understanding began to dawn....

666 will justify the agony, the Crucifixion of suffering.

The way of God is to turn that all around.


Yes, you were "for-known" before you were ever born

God's family, God's plan, God's universe would not be complete without YOU! No one can take your place. There is one of you and there will always only be one of you. You need to think about this and meditate on it. Too many people feel that their life is of little if any value. That's not true, you are so incredibly important to God that Jesus Christ voluntarily laid down His life on the cross, not because your sins had some power over God's life; not to pay some divine debt that you owed God, not to appease the wrath of God, not because He had to die for you, but because GOD LOVES YOU, and He would do anything to prove His eternal love and devotion for HIS FAMILY AND CHILDREN, of whom you are totally unique. http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm

[JohnMichael]

Hi GK,

What others have said, and yourself, is absolutely right. The beast is the most detestable, disgusting, revolting, vile, and loathsome thing in the world. Yet, without God's intervention (His Spirit), that's exactly who we are.

The beast isn't just something IN us, it IS us. I am a beast; just like everyone who ever lived IS a beast. We only delude and deceive ourselves that it isn't there, or that it's just a part of us. One translation of Jeremiah says the heart is deceitfully wicked. Another says exceedingly weak. Both are accurate statements.

There have been times in the past, and even currently, when I don't even feel I can ask the Lord for the smallest thing because of how unworthy I am. You see yourself as you truly are, and you wonder, "How can I possibly even ask for mercy when what I really deserve is death?" It's a harrowing and humbling experience to the extreme. I can't speak for others, but for myself, it hasn't just been a one-time experience either.

For example, people always wants to point fingers at other people like Hitler, Suddam Hussein, etc. Let's talk about Hitler, as an example. He murdered approximately 11.5 million people because they didn't fit his "idea" of what the perfect human race was. The beast would deceptively declare, "Oh, I would never do that! That's just horrible!" Yet, have we ever been so angry with a person or a group of people that we would have just loved to wipe them off the face of the earth? "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" (Prov 23:7). We didn't have the opportunity to put that thought into action, but the thought and desire was still there - therefore, we've done exactly what Hitler did.

In Him,
John