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Author Topic: How do we know if we're converted?  (Read 17873 times)

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River

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2011, 11:07:16 PM »

Yes, you could assume someone could live forever but since living is not done all at once, this is what I am asking. A person can have a time frame where they live and don't desire something but then it may come back again. And I don't understand how you say desire can't be a carnal thing. All the sins listed we are told to abstain from are either survival, reproductive etc. actions all humans are subjected to. So are you talking about a future event that no one has experinced yet?  And again we must be talking only of a faith matter because there is no way to prove someone is going to remain converted since no one has yet lived forever.


So your point is: how can one ever be sure they are converted when they could simply backslide at a later date/time? And you also say this must be a 'faith matter' since it would be impossible to prove, seeing that no one has lived forever.

Your first point: The verse I reference above was Christ saying 'he who endures to the end'. So obviously there is an end. One does not wrestle with the flesh for all eternity. There will come a time when God will be finished judging and correcting you, Jesus says so Himself. That is 'the end' that is spoken of, that is when you will be saved. Whether it happens all in this age or continues into the next, the point is, there is an end.

Your 2nd point: I believe God has already proved Himself in this regard. God has proved Himself in more ways imaginable and I don't think it is a stretch to believe He will convert every human soul and KEEP them converted.

Ray talks about how he knows the scriptures are true. One reason he mentions often is the apostle Paul. He truly believes Paul was not a fraud and was who he said he was. My reason is somewhat different. I know the scriptures are true because they talk about me. Only someone who is God could look into my heart and soul, condemn my sin, and turn me around. I see it all over the scriptures...that's how I know they are true to me.

The reason why I mention this is because if you need things 'proved' to you concerning the things that God says, it will happen. Lots of people need proof. God has only given people 'a measure of faith' [Rom 12:3], only a portion. And not everyone's portion is the same. But the point is, it will happen.



Marques

 Marques, I wanted to thank you for taking the time to answer all my questions on this matter.
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Gina

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 02:16:23 AM »

Deb
Quote
I LOVE the bathroom diaper analogy Gina!!!!  ;D LOL  ;D  

lol, Deb!  Glad you liked.  I first heard my sister Cheri use that term (she borrowed it from our brother Scott) like 15 years ago, or something.  I've never forgotten that.  lol

 
Quote
Jas 1:15  Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death.....just like a poo in a diaper....~ :D ;D  

Lol!  Or, on a more serious note, it could be said that sin, when it is fully-formed, brings forth sleep via Father Time Who comes along and says something like this:  "It's time for you to go to bed.  Nite-nite"   ;D ;D

And with that, I'm going beddy-bye.  Later, party people.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2011, 04:53:17 AM »



Ah...That's why the diaper is a classic! It has a lineage! :D

It just gets better...what you said about sleep is Dazzling! 8)

Peace and quiet comes after the party....~ :)
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Gina

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2011, 12:58:58 AM »

Indeed, Deb.  Peace and quiet comes after the party.  You get it.  

I got a bit of a revelation last night when I was turning in for the night.  I realized that we know we're converted when we would rather be on the forum reading and learning than doing our will.

Marques said, we know we're converted when we no longer have the desire to do the carnal activities you enjoyed once before.

And that's certainly true, except that we have to go one MAJOR step beyond that, and actually do the activities we desire--the ones that line up with what God desires we do.  And the only way that's going to happen is when God works in us to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13)  I realized last night that I get more joy and satisfaction out of this forum than I do other things and my behavior is actually changing.  That ol' diaper analogy at work here.  

YEAH!
  
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Gina

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Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2011, 01:26:44 AM »

Righteous?  lol  I don't know about that, Mr.  

The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not ANYTHING." (Ecc. 9:5)

 ;D

I might only be dying to self a little bit.  :-*
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:29:24 AM by Gina »
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Rob M

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2011, 04:09:13 PM »

Indeed, Deb.  Peace and quiet comes after the party.  You get it.  

I got a bit of a revelation last night when I was turning in for the night.  I realized that we know we're converted when we would rather be on the forum reading and learning than doing our will.

Marques said, we know we're converted when we no longer have the desire to do the carnal activities you enjoyed once before.

And that's certainly true, except that we have to go one MAJOR step beyond that, and actually do the activities we desire--the ones that line up with what God desires we do.  And the only way that's going to happen is when God works in us to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13)  I realized last night that I get more joy and satisfaction out of this forum than I do other things and my behavior is actually changing.  That ol' diaper analogy at work here.  

YEAH!
  
I'm confused because everything we do is a carnal activity is it not? Or do you mean we just sin less and less.
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Gina

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2011, 12:31:11 AM »

Hi, Rob

No, I don't believe everything we do is a carnal activity.  I may be wrong but, when we're praying for others, that's not carnal, is it?  When we're encouraging / edifying others via the forum, that's not carnal, is it?  

It's like Marques said, we don't desire to do those things as we used to, and as I said because we desire to do things that are Godly.  We'll never be completely sin free while still in the flesh, but God can get us to this point if He wills:

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign [to RULE your life in your
mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


That's a good thing.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 04:30:34 AM by Gina »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2011, 03:43:05 AM »


Hi Rob,

It is true that it is just not in this flesh to do good, as Paul said.

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.

How can we escape this body of death?

James 2:26  For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. 

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
v. 25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
If the Holy Spirit is indwelling then we can produce good works/fruit, that Spirit will do it in us and through us.

John 15:4  Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
v. 5  I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Mat 5:16  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Now I do not believe that means that there is no other good works in the world, besides what the Elect do. Because God's Spirit moves and works throughtout the whole world 'with' (but not indwelling) people as He sees fit. Not all works will be burned up in the Lake of Fire either, the good will remain.

1Co 3:11  For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
v. 12  Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
v. 13  each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
v. 14  If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
v. 16  Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

So it is only those Elect that is in Christ and He in them, that these works/fruit are being developed at this time towards them being prepare for the first resurrection.

John 17:20  I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word,
v. 21  that they may all be one, just as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that you have sent Me.
v. 22  The glory that you have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one even as We are one,
v. 23  I in them and You in Me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent Me and loved them even as You loved Me.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2011, 05:28:43 AM »


"The motive is the deed."

If a heart is self seeking, it may perform deeds that appear self sacrificing.

Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

If a heart is God seeking, then deeds that follow will show the Glory of God and by consequence others seeing such good works shall glorify God in the day of their visitation.

1Pe 2:12  Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Arc
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Gina

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2011, 05:35:34 AM »

Quote
1Pe 2:12  Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

ee-boy
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2011, 06:52:34 AM »



Ha....thank you! Yes...I see it now... manifesting the shadow and the light...ie division, separation, fear and guilt.

ops! again! :D

....practise practise practise! ~ ;D

...converting...Arc
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Heidi

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2011, 10:01:35 AM »

For me it is an ongoing process until that day when we get saved.  Ray often talks about the Aorist tense used in Greek.....I am being converted (ongoing....does not stop), day by day..... learning how to overcome certain things in my life and yearning to become more like Jesus.....

Anyhoooow... just my thoughts on being converted
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Gina

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2011, 10:48:20 AM »

Yep, Heidi, it's all in the ing:  becoming, God is molding/re-fashioning our hearts.

Reminds me of what Ray said at the Nashville conference:

This is the Word of God. He put us in these bodies that want to sin and follow after lustful, stupid, sensual, fun, fuzzy things. But if in your heart and mind you don’t want that anymore, not that you don’t want, but you don’t want to want it. So you cry out to God and say, ‘I don’t want to want it.’ Then God is your Father, He’ll come to your rescue. Just like any Father would come to any child’s rescue, when he cries out to him.  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

That was such a relief to hear him say that, because I've said that soooo many times.  Ray's so awesome.
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Rob M

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Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2011, 01:16:49 PM »

Thats the whole problem for me, I don't know what I'm supposed to not want!!  I live in a small 2 bedroom apartment with my severly disabled daughter...should I just be content with this or am I allowed to WANT my own home?  Everyday is the same for me, because my daughter requires constant care. While friends and family travel, get married, buy homes, get to socialize, I'm stuck at home and feel life is passing me by.

I know all my wants should be of a spirtual nature...wisdom, understanding, but it's such a struggle not to want a better life for myself in this age because I grew up very poor and my life has turned of very different than I envisioned as a youngster. To be simply put, I feel my life is a mess and I don't know what I should or should not want.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2011, 01:31:27 PM »



If you knew...I know, I know, I heard you say you don't know...but...If you did know, what you wanted...just let's pretend for a while...if you did know...and I know you don't....but if you did...what would you know, you wanted...if you knew...

Just one thing...what would it be?
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GaryK

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2011, 03:35:33 PM »

Thats the whole problem for me, I don't know what I'm supposed to not want!!  I live in a small 2 bedroom apartment with my severly disabled daughter...should I just be content with this or am I allowed to WANT my own home?  Everyday is the same for me, because my daughter requires constant care. While friends and family travel, get married, buy homes, get to socialize, I'm stuck at home and feel life is passing me by.

I know all my wants should be of a spirtual nature...wisdom, understanding, but it's such a struggle not to want a better life for myself in this age because I grew up very poor and my life has turned of very different than I envisioned as a youngster. To be simply put, I feel my life is a mess and I don't know what I should or should not want.




Somebody else can lay the scripture on you, I'm going to try to boost your comfort level.

Don't kid yourself here bubba, you're a hero.     There is no one else on this god's green earth that has more salt...... than you.......for her, no one else can wear those boots. 

Know that, don't forget it.

You, and the guy I saw yesterday standing in the grocery store line with his severly disabled daughter/sister..(?)........are hero's.   She was looking up at him with admiration and a smile never left his face, or hers, the whole time in line.   I admired him too.  Made me damn near go to tears knowing there are people like you on this earth.

Trust me when I tell you that I understand your statement, here:

"because I grew up very poor and my life has turned of very different than I envisioned as a youngster"

But then again, most everyone will fit into, or at least part of, that statement.   So consider yourself normal in that respect.

Know this: I've seen alot of bad things in this world and I've seen alot of bad people do bad things to people for no reason other than pure and simple -rot-in-the-heart, circumstances  prevailing or not, some people are just shiddy to the bone.  But every dog has it's day and some of them got their's sooner than they expected.    It's good to be reminded from time to time that there ARE people like you in this world that God sees fit to put bravery and kindness combined in the least expected places.   

I'll never believe for a minute that God doesn't have you in mind bud, now or in the next.   If he doesn't, then I don't want him around anyhow.

Don't get too hung up in this world and it's cares and desires, they're as thin as the paper you could write it down on. 

You.... just keep on doing what you're doing.   In my mind, as Bush said we needed, you're a point of light.  And you are.   And that light is shining  so that someone else can see their way.

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Gina

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2011, 05:56:16 PM »

Wow, Rob, I'm sorry I just saw your post.

It's hardly a sin to want to have your own home.  But what if you're not getting a home?  Is it because you're praying for the wrong thing?  Or is it that God is trying to save you from further headaches.  We can be house poor or rent poor.  Having a house isn't all there is.  (I used to want lots of expensive crap but I don't anymore because it costs a lot of money to maintain expensive crap. haha!)  Not sayin  you want expensive crap.  Just me.

GK is right, man, you are a hero!  You're doing something my own FATHER couldn't do.  I was just telling one of my friends about you and how you're taking care of your daughter -- it's awe-inspiring, Rob.  It's really humbling.  I think about you all the time and believe me, I'm praying that God lifts your spirit and puts a smile on your face so huge the temples in your head hurt.  
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 06:07:06 PM by Gina »
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Gina

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2011, 06:00:50 PM »

and p.s.  No!  All of our wants don't have to be of a spiritual nature.  I don't believe that.  How could we survive in this weak flesh (which was so graciously given us by God -- no joke) if all we were given were air to breathe.  We want food--because we NEED food.  We want air because we NEED air.  We want love, because we NEED love and human touch in the proper perspective.  I guarantee you you're not praying for the wrong things.
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Rob M

  • Guest
Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2011, 08:33:13 PM »

GK and Gina, Thank you so much for your kind words and I will tell you this..I have never loved anyone as much as I love her. And I will continue to look after her as long as I am able.  Everything is in His hands, I just have to learn to trust that what He is doing in our lives is a very good work indeed!
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Gina

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Re: How do we know if we're converted?
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2011, 08:34:52 PM »

You are very, very welcome Rob.
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