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[newgene87]

So, with all these truths, its been made me look twice at the church today; regarding just about everything. So now, stepping out, I find myself wanting to praise God. I'm thankful at times and when I am; I find myself praising God like I used to do when I was growing up in my traditional church. And it makes me question those methods. Like, where did shouting or even saying "Hallelujah " come from? What does it mean and where is the scriptural grounds of it? Ive read and listened to ray's teaching on Worship and I know Praise is not worship in itself but a form of worship; but I still find myself wanting to praise God "Right" or "Correct", Scripturally and according to truth.and can someone tell me how this crossrelates to worship too? And same as raising the hands, clapping, bowing (this seems so elementary) but is this scriptural and under new testament Christians? I was raised in the traditional baptist black church where they shout, stomp, dance, scream, cry, and all the ruckus (I guess its universal) - but now, I want to praise God but according to the truth. I hope I make some sense. Thanks. And as always thank you all for the love and counsel. I truly love the members and people of this forum.

[Dave in Tenn]

I saw a documentary on TV years before I stumbled on B-T.  It was about the old 'Shaker' religion.  It started out with a certain emotional and physical 'freedom' in worship, but before long all the 'moves' became choreographed and written down in the 'worship/hymn' books--the 'right' way to worship.  I think the same thing happens in more 'expressive' churches, even though it might not be formally acknowledged.  People feel like doing things, or are encouraged to do things, that turn quickly into 'religion'.  I know that in my youth, ALL these 'raising of hands' and physical and verbal expressions might have begun well, but never ended well. 

There are many examples in scripture of people behaving in certain ways in the act of worship.  There's nothing wrong with any of them in and of themselves.  But we can't 'worship' while we're still carnal.  Worship MUST be in Spirit and in Truth.  Carnal charades are either for public consumption or private 'feeding of the flesh'.  I don't have time to look it up, but there is a scripture that warns against those whose God is their 'bellies'.  One meaning of the Greek word translated 'belly' is 'the emotions'.  Literally, it's 'the bowels', which in the greek idiom is the seat of emotions.  I'm not trying to turn bible-scholar on you, but it makes one think.

Anyways, 'worship' is in obedience.  While there may be a place for 'obeying' the manner of worship, there is much, much more to obedience than that.  Do what you want in this regard, but watch your heart.  You'll know when it changes from 'freedom' to bondage.  You can be 'free' encased in concrete, and in bondage while dancing before the Lord. 

Just thoughts.  I hope they're helpful. 

[newgene87]

Beautiful Dave. I liked that alot. And in saying that John, I have the verse in mind BUT what does it mean to "worship in spirit and in truth"? It sounds good to me, but honestly, I don't know what it means. And does that " worship" involve "Praise"?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Jesus did not go round shouting Hallelujah, or singing his head off like a lunatic! GREAT point newgene87. 
 
Jesus saw Himself as united, not separated, dependent, not independent, of God. Jesus thought, saw, practised and preached, Himself, as ONE with God. THAT’S high praise, made ENDURINGLY manifest! No Free will right! Just what we've learned here!


Not putting God at arms length when the flood to worship, and thanking Him and crying out loud for JOY, is felt, know this as the JOY OF God flooding your being! That's a gift connection of you with GOD. When you feel JOY, that is the JOY of God. It is not YOUR joy to give TO God, it is the JOY OF GOD, given TO YOU, that the mind, like Satan wanting to steal, will quickly make claim and pervert you to think it is YOUR Joy to give to GOD! This is just like the teaching about King of Assyria Isa 10:12 who thought it was his power that gave him his force as a King, and as Ray expounds was "the fruit of his ARROGANT HEART" LOF 15C.. and all along, everything the King had was from God and was of God! LOL...

The mind can't stand that such JOY, is OF God. It hates to think God is so joyfull, so it immediately wants to put God in His Place and you on your knees as a sniveling howling idiot singing hallelujah in a hall of equally blind leading the blind jubilant folks. They burn out eventually....   Okay, okay, King David went through the streets filled with the Joy of God and he made a real spectacle of himself, much to the embarrassment and disdain of his wife! LOL  ...and we know how that ended!  ..for King David, that is ...Again Ray discloses and expounds that King David died wanting his enemies slain!...Not good. Not good, yet certainly for our admonition!

Not putting God at arm’s length distance from you but drawing close to God for God is not away, above or beyond, but is closer than the mind in deep seated hatred towards God and leaning on its own understanding, can believe or even wants you to know!  Look how Ray expounds this...

"Blessed are YE [all you disciples]..." (Ver. 11).
"...for great is YOUR [disciples'] reward..." (Ver. 12).
"YE [disciples] are the salt of the earth..." (Ver. 13).
"YE [disciples] are the light of the world..." (Ver. 14).
"Let YOUR [disciples'] light so shine..." (Ver. 16).
"For verily I say unto YOU [disciples]..." (Ver. 18).
"For I say unto YOU [disciples]..." (Ver. 20).http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm

You are only “Ye” because GOD made you. You have what’s yours, because GOD gave it to you.

IN JOYFUL awe, that surpasses the understanding of the mind, praising, thanking, revering, and acknowledging God for the gift of YOU...that GOD has created, that is YOU, and all! What does that mean?

...worshiping, they’ll look on His Face, their FOREHEADS MIRRORING GOD!....Rev22 The Message Version ~

Arc

[mharrell08]

Okay, okay, King David went through the streets filled with the Joy of God and he made a real spectacle of himself, much to the embarrassment and disdain of his wife! LOL  ...and we know how that ended!  ..for King David, that is ...Again Ray discloses and expounds that King David died wanting his enemies slain!...Not good. Not good, yet certainly for our admonition!

What was wrong with King David dancing and singing to praise God? What did that have to do with wanted his enemies slain while lying on his death bed?

Judges 5:2-3  “When leaders lead in Israel, when the people willingly offer themselves, Bless the LORD! Hear, O kings! Give ear, O princes! I, even I, will sing to the LORD; I will sing praise to the LORD God of Israel.

[Dennis Vogel]

So, with all these truths, its been made me look twice at the church today; regarding just about everything. So now, stepping out, I find myself wanting to praise God. I'm thankful at times and when I am; I find myself praising God like I used to do when I was growing up in my traditional church. And it makes me question those methods. Like, where did shouting or even saying "Hallelujah " come from? What does it mean and where is the scriptural grounds of it? Ive read and listened to ray's teaching on Worship and I know Praise is not worship in itself but a form of worship; but I still find myself wanting to praise God "Right" or "Correct", Scripturally and according to truth.and can someone tell me how this crossrelates to worship too? And same as raising the hands, clapping, bowing (this seems so elementary) but is this scriptural and under new testament Christians? I was raised in the traditional baptist black church where they shout, stomp, dance, scream, cry, and all the ruckus (I guess its universal) - but now, I want to praise God but according to the truth. I hope I make some sense. Thanks. And as always thank you all for the love and counsel. I truly love the members and people of this forum.

"Praise" is synonymous with "Worship" according to my dictionary. And so is Admiration, Acclaim, Tribute, Honor, Celebrate and a few more.

What I see in the church is emotional music to get people in an emotional state of mind. The waving of hands in the air adds to the emotional state.

Nothing wrong with this, but IMO it is many times not genuine. We can get very emotional watching a movie, but that's not praising God. Too many people equate the emotion with something spiritual. Sometimes it is, but IMO many times it's just emotion with very little thought.

What are you thinking about when you are waving your arms in the air? Are you just adding to the emotion? If you are thanking God for all His blessings, trials, the genius behind creation, etc., then it is genuine praise (IMO).

That said, you can still be very emotional about someone you love.

Just do what comes from you heart. It is impossible to manipulate God with formulas.

Eph 6:6  Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

[Kat]

Hi Gene,

You may not have noticed all the Bible studies yet. So you may want to check out this one from a while back entitled 'Worship in Spirit and Truth.'

Audio
http://bible-truths.com/audio/5-06-07_Part1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/5-06-07_Part2.mp3

Transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5312.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[newgene87]

Could it be possible the references in Psalms shows they were praising a God they did not know? Meaning; John 1:18 shows us no one has seen God, and the son has come to "Declare" Him. And Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God establishing a New Covenant (I hope I gothat right) so does that still involve the Old Testament "Praise ye the LORD", "Shout to God" - I see David was still carnal and unconverted; so do we praise our Savior now like carnal, unconverted murderer? And Arc, I love the food for thought. And that's exactly how I see it; why are to reach out to A God who's nearer than when first believed, shout to God who's beside us and in us. And isn't there a verse something like God is not worshipped by no mans hands or something like that. And I see arc, Joy is a gift ("My joy I GIVE unto you...") and is fruit of the spirit: its something LIVED OUT not to extend to God like its of ourselves, and its not. And then there's Hebrews 13:15....where's the Balance to This?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Marques, King David yelling and shouting with the blast sound of a Trumpet, has nothing to do with the Scripture you quote, which refers to Deborah and Barak singing praise to the Lord for the avenging of Israel.

David was shouting....yelling...with the "whole house of Israel" and the sound of the Trumpet! Must have sounded like pretty heavy metal, notwithstanding that some could think that might sound like, the Hills are Alive with the Sound of Music!...  

If you read a few verses earlier, you'll see that the Scripture tells us that David was afraid of the Lord that day. 2 Sa 6 :9

We know that the precepts of men teach us to fear God, not to love Him. That's a NO NO!

That Samuel tells us that David was filled with joy, is evidence of the gift of JOY God gave to David as he went yelling and dancing his way through the streets.   There is NO mention that David was "singing praise to God" but there is mention of David sacrificing animals to God...which God doesn't actually enjoy!

Neither as OT Deborah nor as Miriam, is it ever appropriate or pleasing to God to party, sing or gloat over the defeat of the enemy, for  when the spirits are subject to you, our rejoicing is for our names written in heaven!  

What David yelling and shouting's got to do with Deborah, I have no clue.

I know this doesn't answer your questions Marques, but maybe your question and the answer is not either for you nor I.  We have recently been made aware of this possiblility through a recent Thread of Samson's. God, gives record for others to see and behold the work of God to His Praise and Joy given to us to experience!...not for us to give back as ours to give to God...NO NO!

May the Praise and Joy of God abound in you all!

newgene87 It is thrilling that you are feeling and embracing the gift of Joy that is the Spirit of God in you, through you and with you!

Continue to be Blessed, knowing God is THE Blessing!

[Deborah-Leigh]

Heb 13:15  through him, then, we may offer up a sacrifice of praise always to God, that is, the fruit of lips, giving thanks to His name;

THROUGH HIM...we offer up a sacrifice OF praise....OF PRAISE....GOD IS PRAISE....Like the Faith we have is OF CHRIST...not of us...

....we give thanks TO HIS NAME....HIS NAME is ONE...As He is so are we HIS IMAGE as we mirror HIS FACE that shines in our foreheads...

Ray too has expounded what it means to have the mark of the Beast on our foreheads...as meaning our thoughts are facing the Beast not the Face of the Lord as expounded in the Scripture referencing to that JOY OF God as God shall bring us to SEE HIS FACE and have upon our forehead only sight of HIM as to become the mirror OF GOD!

[mharrell08]

Could it be possible the references in Psalms shows they were praising a God they did not know? Meaning; John 1:18 shows us no one has seen God, and the son has come to "Declare" Him. And Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God establishing a New Covenant (I hope I gothat right) so does that still involve the Old Testament "Praise ye the LORD", "Shout to God"

Just because they did not see God does not mean they did not know of the one True God. Remember is was the Israelites of the OT who received the oracles of God [Rom 3:2]. The write of Hebrews listed many OT saints who were justified by their faith. [Hebrews chapter 11].

- I see David was still carnal and unconverted; so do we praise our Savior now like carnal, unconverted murderer?

Why do we throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to King David? How come his virtues are tossed aside because of his faults?

That's the point I wanted to make before. David was not singing/praising/shouting to seek attention, it was because he had joy in his heart. He showed this joy by distributing the offerings to all the people of Israel [1 Sam 6:19]. Here is what happened to Michal the daughter of Saul when she had anger in her heart over David's dance of praise:

2 Sam 6:20-23  Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, “How glorious was the king of Israel today, uncovering himself today in the eyes of the maids of his servants, as one of the base fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!” So David said to Michal, “It was before the LORD, who chose me instead of your father and all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel.

Therefore I will play music before the LORD. And I will be even more undignified than this, and will be humble in my own sight. But as for the maidservants of whom you have spoken, by them I will be held in honor.” Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.

And we next read of Nathan informing King David that 'God is with him' [2 Sam 7:3].

And Arc, I love the food for thought. And that's exactly how I see it; why are to reach out to A God who's nearer than when first believed, shout to God who's beside us and in us. And isn't there a verse something like God is not worshipped by no mans hands or something like that. And I see arc, Joy is a gift ("My joy I GIVE unto you...") and is fruit of the spirit: its something LIVED OUT not to extend to God like its of ourselves, and its not. And then there's Hebrews 13:15....where's the Balance to This?

If there's no obedience to God and His Word, then it's all in vain. If it's done to the Lord with a mind & heart toward obeying His Word, then it is fine.


Marques

[Gina]

"Praise" is synonymous with "Worship" according to my dictionary. And so is Admiration, Acclaim, Tribute, Honor, Celebrate and a few more.

What I see in the church is emotional music to get people in an emotional state of mind. The waving of hands in the air adds to the emotional state.

Nothing wrong with this, but IMO it is many times not genuine. We can get very emotional watching a movie, but that's not praising God. Too many people equate the emotion with something spiritual. Sometimes it is, but IMO many times it's just emotion with very little thought.

What are you thinking about when you are waving your arms in the air? Are you just adding to the emotion? If you are thanking God for all His blessings, trials, the genius behind creation, etc., then it is genuine praise (IMO).

That said, you can still be very emotional about someone you love.

Just do what comes from you heart. It is impossible to manipulate God with formulas.

Eph 6:6  Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

That's the part I always hated, and so I wouldn't do it.  I always felt like, "I'm not waving my hands, so maybe I don't love God."  Psshhh.  Thank GOD for Bible-Truths! 

[Gina]

Maybe "hated" is too strong a word.

[Akira329]

Hey Gene,
1Co 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

Like, where did shouting or even saying "Hallelujah " come from? What does it mean and where is the scriptural grounds of it?

 
"Hallelujah" is a Hebrew word which means "praise Yahweh" or translated in or English bibles to "praise the Lord"
I see no point in starting to say this word if your not accustomed or don't speak Hebrew.
God is not conjured up by special phrases or words.
You'll find Praise the Lord all throughout Davids Pslams!! And David praised him like nobodies business!!LOL
Besides....
If the truth causes you to strip your clothes and dance around half naked, so be it!LOL
Praise the Lord Gene!!

Hope this helps
Antaiwan

[octoberose]

If we don't praise Him, the rocks and the trees will-  so PRAISE Him however He leads you to do so! 

[Rene]

Beautiful Dave. I liked that alot. And in saying that John, I have the verse in mind BUT what does it mean to "worship in spirit and in truth"? It sounds good to me, but honestly, I don't know what it means. And does that " worship" involve "Praise"?

I praise my Lord and Savior everyday and yes, it is a part of my worship of Him.  I can't help but praise Him because of the extreme joy I feel deep inside for the many blessings He continue to bestow upon me.  I feel especially happy about the "blessings" that are of a "spiritual" nature, and it is this conversion of my heart and mind that causes me to praise Him often!

Yet, on many occasions when I am "praising" God, it may not appear so outwardly, but inwardly I am spiritually "jumping for joy."


René   

 

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccGz-li_rgM&feature=related

Hallelujah ~

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=musBrC2MQ78&feature=related

Let the hills rejoice...

[acomplishedartis]

"Praise" is synonymous with "Worship" according to my dictionary. And so is Admiration, Acclaim, Tribute, Honor, Celebrate and a few more.

What I see in the church is emotional music to get people in an emotional state of mind. The waving of hands in the air adds to the emotional state.

Nothing wrong with this, but IMO it is many times not genuine. We can get very emotional watching a movie, but that's not praising God. Too many people equate the emotion with something spiritual. Sometimes it is, but IMO many times it's just emotion with very little thought.

What are you thinking about when you are waving your arms in the air? Are you just adding to the emotion? If you are thanking God for all His blessings, trials, the genius behind creation, etc., then it is genuine praise (IMO).

That said, you can still be very emotional about someone you love.

Just do what comes from you heart. It is impossible to manipulate God with formulas.

Eph 6:6  Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Exactly, I agree very much.      This why I have a problem with famous, Rich and explicit ''Christian'' Musicians (...I can't stand them)

''ANYONE CAN SAY A LOT OF RIGHT THINGS WHILE PRESENTING THEM ON THE WRONG WAY, THE RESULT IS THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY HE WILL JUST BE CONTRADICTING HIMSELF, OVER AND OVER AGAIN.''


I too, does remember those old church days when you felt so much social pressure to wave your hands- such big buildings full of physical adults acting like spiritual annoying child's...