romans 9;27 problem???...

[david1611kjv]

Romans 9;27(YLT)And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, 'If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, THE REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED;

hey guy's, i am having problems lining this passage up with the universalist perspective i have come to embrace....now i know that a statement of fact does not equate to a statement of limitation, but this seems to be quite specific, as it first of all compares the number of the whole sons of Israel to the remnant which is confusing me quite a bit here, lol.....every time i think im grounded another damn problem comes up....i feel like chuckin it in and going agnostic...grrrrrr

come on folks dont be shy.....:¬)

[mavis92379]

Remember they are not all Israel which are of Israel. Paul is referencing those who would accept Christ in that age. Only a remnant of "Israel" was actually of the Israel of God.

[david1611kjv]

im sorry i dont see that in the rest of chapter 9....this seems like a clear statement, i see no reference to this remnant being only in the first ressurection, or the likes.

[mavis92379]

Lets see if someone else can help clear this up.

[Gina]

lol.....every time i think im grounded another damn problem comes up....i feel like chuckin it in and going agnostic...grrrrrr

come on folks dont be shy.....:¬)

Love it.   

[Gina]

Matt's reply is correct.  And it seems you answered your own question. 

i know that a statement of fact does not equate to a statement of limitation,

It seems to me that whether the remnant is saved in the first or second resurrection is of little or no consequence.  What matters is that Jesus Christ is not a failure.  Will He fail at saving everyone?  No.  He was commissioned to do a work and He will not fail.  Because His Father wouldn't let Him.  Otherwise, He would not be given the title "Savior of the world."  Anyway, that's what matters to me.   

[thetruth]

David,This verse according to the Hebrew Interlinear reads as follows:

That if he is becoming people of you Isreal as sand of the sea Remnant he shall return in him conclusion being decided overflowing justice.

I tried to copy it but could not...sorry.

Also i noticed that kjv and a couple of other translation used the word though?

I would also say to stick to the Spiritual PRINCIPLE of Matthew 18-16-2-Cor 13-1
BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESS A MATTER BE ESTABLISHED.

As well as No Scripture is of its on private interpertation.

As i dont see this one verse or No one verse being a end all of the reconciling of the world.

[Dave in Tenn]

From this paper, hopefully a help with the main teachings in this chapter:


http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm

Again, Dr. Kennedy, let's read Romans 9:18 in the whole context of its setting, and we will see that the final destination of those "hardened" is not eternal torture in the flames of Hell, but rather salvation in the Family of God. Notice:

"For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that 'For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.' Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening" (Rom. 9:17-18).

Pharaoh was hardened as a dark backdrop for the display of God's power and glory. Some protest to God's operations (Vers. 19-21). God is the Master Potter and has a right to make vessels adapted for destruction, so that He can display His mercy on others (Vers. 22-24).

God is now calling sons out of the nations, while Israel [the hardened ones] "stumble on the stumbling stone" (Vers. 25-33). Paul's heart is set on their salvation, however (Rom. 10:1-2). "Everyone, whoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved" (Ver. 13). Paul says, however, that this is not possible unless they "believe," "from one heralding," who is "commissioned" (Vers. 14-16). But Isaiah asks: "Lord, who believes our tidings?" (Ver. 16). Obviously not "hardened Israel." So God says: "I became disclosed to those who are not inquiring of Me" [the Gentiles] (Ver. 20).

Paul then says:

"Does not God thrust away His people? May it not be coming to that!" (Rom. 11:1).

That is unthinkable to Paul. So he quickly assures us that:

"God does not thrust away His people whom He foreknew" (Ver 2).

Of course God foreknew everything that is happening in the history of Israel from their beginning. Although Israel as a nation has been hardened, and become "a stubborn and contradicting people" (Ver. 21), nonetheless, even in Paul's day God called a "... remnant according to the choice of grace" (Ver. 5). However,

"Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day" (Ver. 6).

Why does God harden Israel and callous them? So that He can torture them in fire for all eternity? Ridiculous. Paul answers his own question:

"Do they [Israel] not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to [to what? Have a reason for throwing them in Hell for eternity?] provoke them to jealousy" (Ver. 11).

God uses evil FOR GOOD! Israel's hardened and calloused heart is preparing them for salvation! They will be so jealous when they see what God has done for the Gentiles.

Paul summarizes this whole process by stating:

"For if their [Israel] casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back be if not life from among the dead?" (Ver. 15).

And this: "... that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering" (Ver. 25).

And then what happens?

"And thus ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED ..." (Ver. 26). "I should be eliminating their sins" (Ver. 27).

[Gina]

Beautiful Dave!

[Joel]

What I see in Romans 9, and Isaiah 10 is, many called and few chosen.
God used Assyria to punish Israel, and speaks of this in Isaiah 10, taking place back there in the seven hundreds B.C., but as always God has a remnant that he keeps for himself, that still have faith in him through it all, the chosen.

During Paul's day when he is writing to the Romans, he finds himself the apostle to the Gentiles. God has taken a small part of the Jewish people and added them to the early Church, and left the nation of Israel to be punished at the hands of the Romans that lay Jerusalem to waste in 70 A.D.

Paul longed to see God save Israel at that time, but he knew that was not to be, because God was set on saving  Gentiles, and the many called, few chosen rule applied there, as it also does in our day.

The Potter has the power to make, pick and choose as he likes, and all must be put to the fire. I don't see any thing in the scriptures mentioned, that contradict universal salvation.


Joel