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The No Hell Defense?

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Kat:

Hi the truth,

Well for me it was the knowledge that there is no free-will. That was an idea I had never heard before and it's quite hard to wrap your mind around at first. But when you realize that we have no freedom of will and that God is responsible for all, well how can you possibly believe that He would put anybody/anybody in a place like hell, when He is the ultimate cause of all things? It is so illogical in that light. Not sure if there is one Spcripture to use for that, so here is an email where Ray speaks on this and gives Scriptures.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7286.0.html -----------

People not only do not believe the Scriptures, they DESPISE the Scriptures. People want to believe the damnable lie and heresy (II Pet. 2:1) that God gave to mankind a "God-thwarting power" called "free will"--"human free [uncaused] moral agency."
They WILL NOT obey a God Whom they think can "control" them.  What are the Scriptural facts? As though people who despise the Word of God are interested in Scriptural facts. Your friend contradicts his own argument with his own argument:  "JESUS OBEYED AS HE CHOSE TO DO NOT HIS WILL BUT THE FATHERS WILL."  And did Jesus "CHOOSE" to not do His own will BY HIS OWN ["free"] WILL?
 
WHY have "all sinned" (Rom. 3:23) except Jesus (Heb. 4:15)?  Christendom and her hundreds of thousands of theologians cannot answer that question using the Scriptures.  Because if God had not prevented Jesus from sinning, and He was tempted as we are, and He possessed the fabled "free will" that all men supposedly have, then Jesus WOULD HAVE SINNED.  Why (without the Father living IN HIM) would His "free" will NOT have sinned?  Give me a Scripture?  PLEASE? Remove my statement that the Father would not allow Jesus to sin, and then SHOW ME in the Scriptures where it was possible for Jesus NOT TO SIN?  Show me the Scripture?
 
Who operates in man to do good?  Who operated in Jesus to do good?

Phi 2:13 "For it is God [Who? Man? NO--'GOD'] which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."  Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not.

 Joh 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." Do Christians believe this verse?  Of course not. So then, did the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God the Father IN Jesus keep Him from sinning or not?  Was it the Father's WILL, that Jesus SIN?  Then WHOSE will did Jesus pray would keep Him from sinning--"

Mat 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."  Do Christians believe this verse with all their "free will" nonsense?   Of course not. When Jesus prayed, where those Jesus' words or the words of His Father "...working in Jesus both to will and to do of His good pleasure?"

Jud 1:24 "Now unto Him [GOD ALMIGHTY] that is able to keep you from falling [Gk:  aptaistos "a derivative of G4417; not stumbling, that is, (figuratively) without sin: - from falling"--Strong's Greek Dictionary]and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."  So God can keep us from sinning, but He could not and did not "keep Jesus from SINNING?"  Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not.

Etc., etc., etc. But why go on?  Christians who worship the godless idols of their hearts, will NOT receive instruction from the Word of God. They will NOT!

God be with you,

Ray

Deborah-Leigh:
Hi thetruth

If someone "needs proof", they might not yet be ready, to discern Truth.

Seeking proof, and not wanting to understand, or seeking proof and not desiring Wisdom, are very different things.

Like Truth, proof, can not always be seen.

Scripture doesn't contradict.  If you try to make it look like it is contradictory, or that a person is wrong,  it's like trying to reverse the discovery of the wheel. It's not going to happen.

To pitch one Scripture against another, to prove anything is as Ray says, to convince a person against their will, is to leave them with the same opinion still.  ;D

Paul prays that we come to experience for ourselves, the love of Christ : Ephesians 3 : 19 [That you may really come} to know [ practically, through EDXPERIENCE FOR YOURSELVES ] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience]; that you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]! (Amplified Version ~ Caps mine)


Arc

octoberose:
I think one of the compelling things to me is there is no hell in the old testament. God didn't just spring hell on mankind two thousand years ago! The penalty for them was death, it was not hell and hades is sheol (the grave) the unseen. Someone tired to tell me that the verse about Jesus ministering to Noah and the prisoners of that time was Jesus telling them about hell. Now, that is stretching it so far I was practically incoherent trying to answer them back! I'm working on that.  :o

thetruth:
Hello,Arc

If someone "needs proof", they might not yet be ready, to discern Truth

I would not be ready either to discern truth if someone could not show me proof...lol
And for me thats 2 or 3 Scriptuers.Love you my sister thanks for sharing!

Gina:
Isaiah 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

thetruth, this is a very, very engaging post, and if no one minds me saying, I'm having fun with it!

And I know you're wanting more than two scriptures as proof; however, since the chapters and verses weren't put in till much later after the bible was written down, I'm going to say, Isaiah 5:20 is more than enough biblical proof.  But as Arc so aptly points out, it won't be proof enough.  Oh well!  At least they aren't going to hell!  There'll be plenty of time for us to get to know the Truth, won't there!  haha!

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