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Author Topic: The No Hell Defense?  (Read 7756 times)

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thetruth

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The No Hell Defense?
« on: January 11, 2012, 03:33:55 PM »

If you were asked to present your ONE main biblical proof that Hell does not exist without using that "God is love". What would it be? I put that exception in there because, Many say they know His love but it doesnt seem to matter.So again what is your One main proof that you have learned from Rays teachings that you would or do use to prove that there is No Hell?
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John from Kentucky

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 03:46:27 PM »

If you were asked to present your ONE main biblical proof that Hell does not exist without using that "God is love". What would it be? I put that exception in there because, Many say they know His love but it doesnt seem to matter.So again what is your One main proof that you have learned from Rays teachings that you would or do use to prove that there is No Hell?

I like to go on the offense.  You cannot prove a negative or non truth.  I would ask what is the ONE biblical proof that shows there is an everlasting hell fire?  With the understanding that the English translation must be an accurate representation of the Greek scripture.
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onelovedread

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 04:03:54 PM »

For me it would be Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

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thetruth

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 04:08:36 PM »

Thanks John,Now i know we have it covered from both the offensive and defensive side...They are sure not to get away now..lol.I read over my statement 3 times and made adjustments but still seemed to have left a loop hole.So now can i get a response?
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 04:09:25 PM »

I'm not sure there is one thing that 'convinced' me.  All kinds of questions and concerns raged in me in the days and weeks after I believed.  (Some of these possibilities have even become doctrines in some churches--eternal annihilation, seperation, purgatory, and the sort-of 'hell-light' that was preached in my last church, etc.)  What calmed those storms and ended those arguments was seeing in Scripture that God is Sovereign.  That He does with man what He wants when He wants to for His own purposes.  That He declares His purpose to create mankind in His image.  That He is working a plan that very few would see the Wisdom in.  And that He's clearly stated His intention to reconcile all things unto Himself, each in it's own turn.  If THOSE things are true, then it is impossible for there to be ANY 'alternative' which would thwart Him--the Doctrine of Hell being the most evil.

Anyways, if I wanted to argue, I'd ask them to read the open letters to Hagee and Kennedy.  They overthrow pretty much every objection to God saving All.  Nobody can wiggle out of at least hearing the Gospel reading them.  Then God will either soften or harden hearts as He's always done, and I might have a clue who I am 'arguing' with--a sincere seeker, a religious hobbyist, or someone God is not calling out at this time.

I doubt that's the kind of answer you were looking for, but it's the only one I can give.

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2012, 05:44:20 PM »


Hi the truth,

Well for me it was the knowledge that there is no free-will. That was an idea I had never heard before and it's quite hard to wrap your mind around at first. But when you realize that we have no freedom of will and that God is responsible for all, well how can you possibly believe that He would put anybody/anybody in a place like hell, when He is the ultimate cause of all things? It is so illogical in that light. Not sure if there is one Spcripture to use for that, so here is an email where Ray speaks on this and gives Scriptures.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7286.0.html -----------

People not only do not believe the Scriptures, they DESPISE the Scriptures. People want to believe the damnable lie and heresy (II Pet. 2:1) that God gave to mankind a "God-thwarting power" called "free will"--"human free [uncaused] moral agency."
They WILL NOT obey a God Whom they think can "control" them.  What are the Scriptural facts? As though people who despise the Word of God are interested in Scriptural facts. Your friend contradicts his own argument with his own argument:  "JESUS OBEYED AS HE CHOSE TO DO NOT HIS WILL BUT THE FATHERS WILL."  And did Jesus "CHOOSE" to not do His own will BY HIS OWN ["free"] WILL?
 
WHY have "all sinned" (Rom. 3:23) except Jesus (Heb. 4:15)?  Christendom and her hundreds of thousands of theologians cannot answer that question using the Scriptures.  Because if God had not prevented Jesus from sinning, and He was tempted as we are, and He possessed the fabled "free will" that all men supposedly have, then Jesus WOULD HAVE SINNED.  Why (without the Father living IN HIM) would His "free" will NOT have sinned?  Give me a Scripture?  PLEASE? Remove my statement that the Father would not allow Jesus to sin, and then SHOW ME in the Scriptures where it was possible for Jesus NOT TO SIN?  Show me the Scripture?
 
Who operates in man to do good?  Who operated in Jesus to do good?

Phi 2:13 "For it is God [Who? Man? NO--'GOD'] which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."  Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not.

 Joh 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." Do Christians believe this verse?  Of course not. So then, did the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God the Father IN Jesus keep Him from sinning or not?  Was it the Father's WILL, that Jesus SIN?  Then WHOSE will did Jesus pray would keep Him from sinning--"

Mat 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."  Do Christians believe this verse with all their "free will" nonsense?   Of course not. When Jesus prayed, where those Jesus' words or the words of His Father "...working in Jesus both to will and to do of His good pleasure?"

Jud 1:24 "Now unto Him [GOD ALMIGHTY] that is able to keep you from falling [Gk:  aptaistos "a derivative of G4417; not stumbling, that is, (figuratively) without sin: - from falling"--Strong's Greek Dictionary]and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."  So God can keep us from sinning, but He could not and did not "keep Jesus from SINNING?"  Do Christians believe this verse? Of course not.

Etc., etc., etc. But why go on?  Christians who worship the godless idols of their hearts, will NOT receive instruction from the Word of God. They will NOT!

God be with you,

Ray
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2012, 06:54:01 PM »

Hi thetruth

If someone "needs proof", they might not yet be ready, to discern Truth.

Seeking proof, and not wanting to understand, or seeking proof and not desiring Wisdom, are very different things.

Like Truth, proof, can not always be seen.

Scripture doesn't contradict.  If you try to make it look like it is contradictory, or that a person is wrong,  it's like trying to reverse the discovery of the wheel. It's not going to happen.

To pitch one Scripture against another, to prove anything is as Ray says, to convince a person against their will, is to leave them with the same opinion still.  ;D

Paul prays that we come to experience for ourselves, the love of Christ : Ephesians 3 : 19 [That you may really come} to know [ practically, through EDXPERIENCE FOR YOURSELVES ] the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience]; that you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]! (Amplified Version ~ Caps mine)


Arc
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octoberose

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2012, 08:43:55 PM »

I think one of the compelling things to me is there is no hell in the old testament. God didn't just spring hell on mankind two thousand years ago! The penalty for them was death, it was not hell and hades is sheol (the grave) the unseen. Someone tired to tell me that the verse about Jesus ministering to Noah and the prisoners of that time was Jesus telling them about hell. Now, that is stretching it so far I was practically incoherent trying to answer them back! I'm working on that.  :o
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thetruth

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 09:46:34 PM »

Hello,Arc

If someone "needs proof", they might not yet be ready, to discern Truth

I would not be ready either to discern truth if someone could not show me proof...lol
And for me thats 2 or 3 Scriptuers.Love you my sister thanks for sharing!

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Gina

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 12:18:52 AM »

Isaiah 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

thetruth, this is a very, very engaging post, and if no one minds me saying, I'm having fun with it!

And I know you're wanting more than two scriptures as proof; however, since the chapters and verses weren't put in till much later after the bible was written down, I'm going to say, Isaiah 5:20 is more than enough biblical proof.  But as Arc so aptly points out, it won't be proof enough.  Oh well!  At least they aren't going to hell!  There'll be plenty of time for us to get to know the Truth, won't there!  haha!
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River

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 12:52:52 AM »

Luke 9:54-55
Luke 22:50-51
Matthew 4:23
Matthew 15:30
Luke 6:35
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olasupo jacobs

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 02:02:45 AM »

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
2Co_4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co_4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Proof or evidence even with the scriptures can't convince the "spititually discerned" why?......because of the above stated scriptures and many others that gives credence to that possibility of God not allowing all but  few to understand Him, His operation and grand plan for all of his children in this age now.
Ecc 3:10  I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
Ecc 3:11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
some translation render "he had set obsurity in their heart"....Nicodemus was a religious and knowledgeable person...yet he didn't know about being regenerated/being born of the spirit until Jesus expound that to him..how many billions in the world today would believe scriptures even when its printed in bold letters across their face?...very few. only those that has been designated before hand would believe..because its been given to them to know while majority has beeen confined to unbelive..if u know u r amongst those that has been given to have "the keys of the kingdom" rejoice...but i would rejoice more because all mankind eventually would be saved and become part of God's kingdom, no one would be left out...this is the true gospel(evangel) or goodnews....not the gospel of Hell. remain blessed- olasupo jacobs

ps: your prayers for my country Nigeria is needed now..that His will be done
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 03:19:05 AM »

Hello,Arc

If someone "needs proof", they might not yet be ready, to discern Truth

I would not be ready either to discern truth if someone could not show me proof...lol



I love you too Jerry....okay....back to the 2 or three Scriptures you mention requiring.

You are not wrong! ;D

You DO NEED two or three Scriptures in order to "establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine." http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

There is a day  the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Isa 26 :9 ....when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

From TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD ~ truth number 12 "If any man will DO His will, he shall KNOW of [concerning] the doctrine, whether it be of God....(John 7:17)

God works all things in accord to His plan and purpose, not ours, so we can relax about the other chap over here or there, and get on with living the Truth as it has been revealed to us and continues to open to our joy OF Faith that is Christ in us.  8)

There IS enough Joy of  being the Light and the Salt, ( the wave and the particle)  enough, to flavor what can be experienced as a pretty dark and dull world! ;D


WE are to study. Leading any other pedigree race horse to water, still doesn't make the beautiful beast drink.  LOL  ;D

2Ti 2:15  Study to show thyself approved to GOD (not approved to human limits, boundaries and parameters)
2Ti 2:15  Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.
2Ti 2:16  However, avoid pointless discussions. For people will become more and more ungodly,

See what I mean ;D We can't take the exams for our kids! We have to encourage them to know to do right, be good and behave nicely through example that they might, perchance and by the Glorious Gift of God,  see in us,  what is good to the resurrection of life, that is God IS working all in accord to His plan and purpose!

Just one other tip. You have to have the CORRECT TRANSLATION for Hades and Sheol, in order to even start to understand what they truly mean. Before you even get to the translation, it might be advised to get to know that such words in the Scriptures, do actually speak the Truth.

The mistranslated word "Hell" has been working all things in accord to fear and punnishment which, if there be any message, it is that the mis-translations of the word, is and has been the action of worldliness, getting Godliness completely wrong! ;D

Arc




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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 03:24:49 AM »


You don't have to defend that there is no hell. You don't have to defend against an illusion. Especially an illusion people like and enjoy! ;D People buy tickets to experience Terror Mountain in Disney world! They like the ride! They WANT the ride! ;D

Be it unto them, as they believe. God will take away their Hell one day 8) ;D In that day there shall be much rejoicing!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 04:07:39 AM by Arcturus »
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Gina

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 04:24:13 AM »

Beautiful, Deb.  :) 

Yes, people would much rather SEE a sermon than hear one, any day!
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jvsm1971

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2012, 07:01:04 AM »

Hello  :) this is my first post, comment, but I would just like to add that 1 Cor 3:15 "If ANY mans work be BURNED he shall suffer loss though he himself shall be SAVED yet so as by FIRE. This verse demonstrates what exactly "Fire" is and what it does. This verse (for me) destroyed any notion of a chamber burning people endlessly. (Jessica).
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mavis92379

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2012, 12:26:57 PM »

The more you get in touch with what the Scriptures really teach you will really see that you can prove the truth on this matter from almost any chapter in the New Testament. Its so hard to pick one main point at this time for me. It would be like asking me what is the main reason I dont believe in the bogey man. ITS NOT REAL ! As you study the teachings on this site and grow familiar with the hundreds of concepts and principals the scripture teach you will begin to see just how foreign this concept of hell is and that trying to find ONE BEST THING to sum it all up best with is just impossible. To answer your question directly though I think the following scriptures are all equally the simplest concepts :

Rom 5:18,11:32
1Cor 15:22,28
Philp 2:10
1Tim 2:4,4:10
1John 4:14

You do not need to interpret or logically prove anything in these scriptures just read them over and over to anyone who asks you to give account. They are direct statements that need no explanations.

I have dumb founded many people by asking them If the penalty for sins is eternal hell like they are claiming than why did Jesus not have to burn in hell to pay for our sins? This is an extremly easy concept :

The penalty for sin is death ! Rom 6:23
Jesus paid our penalty by dying ! 1Cor 15:3

If someone is going to claim that the penalty for sin is burning in hell forever than they most also admit for Jesus to carry their penalty he must also have need to burn eternally.

Pretty simple huh ?

I know I said I dont believe in the bogey man but what people say and do after I put it that plainly is pretty close to seeing him.








 
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Gina

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2012, 12:35:36 PM »

Beautiful Matt!  This is the best!  Thank you.  (Used that one myself.  I think I learned it from you.)

Quote
I have dumb founded many people by asking them If the penalty for sins is eternal hell like they are claiming than why did Jesus not have to burn in hell to pay for our sins? This is an extremly easy concept :

The penalty for sin is death ! Rom 6:23
Jesus paid our penalty by dying ! 1Cor 15:3

If someone is going to claim that the penalty for sin is burning in hell forever than they most also admit for Jesus to carry their penalty he must also have need to burn eternally.
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Gina

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2012, 12:42:01 PM »

Quote
Okay, here it is:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin IS DEATH ; but the gift of God is  ETERNAL LIFE  through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There it is.  What is the "WAGES" of sin?  There is no "gift" for sin, there is only "WAGES" for sin.  So what IS the "wages" of sin, is it "eternal LIFE?"  or "DEATH?"  Well we just read it, the "wages of sin is DEATH"--not eternal LIFE  in hell. 
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13793.msg121620.html#new

This is beautiful too.  Used this one too.  Got it from Ray.  lol

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Shawn Fainn

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Re: The No Hell Defense?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2012, 02:43:07 PM »

Quote
Okay, here it is:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin IS DEATH ; but the gift of God is  ETERNAL LIFE  through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There it is.  What is the "WAGES" of sin?  There is no "gift" for sin, there is only "WAGES" for sin.  So what IS the "wages" of sin, is it "eternal LIFE?"  or "DEATH?"  Well we just read it, the "wages of sin is DEATH"--not eternal LIFE  in hell. 
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13793.msg121620.html#new

This is beautiful too.  Used this one too.  Got it from Ray.  lol

Was thinking of summarizing that same point on facebook as well. Ended up just linking the email. :)
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