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Deserving Death

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Gina:
I'm struggling with the words "deserving death" I've seen throughout the bible.  I hate to bring this up, but it's really buggin me. 

See, I can understand that "dying we shall (must) die."  But having to die because God must refashion us is not quite as offensive in light of the fact that God made us weak.  To me, saying we deserve death because of our weakness of the flesh and propensity to sin because of it, is like saying to a person with a jelly spine, "This is how you walk upright..."  and then  when he isn't able to do what you say, proceed to say to him:  "What?!  You can't walk upright?!  You deserve to die."  It sounds so ludicrous.

Please be gentle with me in your responses, as you always are.  I mean no disrespect to God or to you.  Thank you.

DougE6:
Hi Gina

God has given us our life! Before He made us, we did not even exist.  We knew nothing. We felt nothing. We had no consciousness. We had no fellowship. It is a great gift to be! To be called into existence.  God has given you and me existence. This gives Him great rights over us and great responsiibilities towards us.  That is why God even says 'Children obey your parents. Parents have the right to expect obedience from the care and sacrifice they put forth into their children.

The first thing that we need to do in response to the gift of life, is to be grateful. (now all my pronouns are not directed at you personally, it is just my way of speaking). Grateful that we have been given life. Even more, that we are being fashioned into His image, into gods.  What else would you call someone who is in the family of God? Are not children like their parents? When God is done with us, and Jesus is our elder brother, and we are like Him, what should we call ourselves?  Should we be grateful for the destiny and plan He has for us?

yes God has given us weak spines. So we cannot walk upright. And in our natural carnal state, we don't want a strong spine. We are happy with our weak spine, even though God tells us to walk upright!  And even though with our weak spine we are unable to do so. But you have forgotten one thing in your illustration.  GOD says HE will give us the strength to walk upright and He will give us strong spines!!  So what if we start out with jelly spines.  It must be very necessary.

And God has every right, as the Creator to start us off with weak jelly like spines. Additionally, He has the right, because we do PREFER and CARRY out weak spine activities, even MORESO as He has put in us a conscience to accuse, and has made His laws known, He has the right to call us to account and has the right to arrange us to suffer consequences when we refuse to obey and prefer our weak spine! God does not force you to carry out your weak spine activities. He has so arranged things that you do these activities right from your heart. And He has made a just and lawful decree. That all weak jelly spine activites have wages, and these wages are death. And when you think about it, a selfish carnal being frankly deserves death. I don't want no selfish despot given the privelige of living forever.

And then God the Creator, who made you weak, took it upon Himself in the person of His Son Jesus to EMPTY HIMSELF and join you in your weakness, and DIE. And he took it upon Himself to make His Son suffer pains in all the ways that this world would make us suffer, and He decided that Jesus would suffer a death by torture, so not only would Jesus die as a sin offering to settle the wages and allow God to grant etenal life, but that God through Jesus didn't ask us to go through anything He Himself was not willing to feel and experience in the same weak body that we have. 

So God gave us life, then sent His Son to die and experience and share in our sufferings,  AND is going to take us up to where His Son is, and eventually set us in the heavenlies with Him.

So His plan is NOT ludicrous from where I sit. I am actually in awe. I am in awe that God had decided to make a family and make me part of it.  And I have no problem with Him calling me to account, and the death sentence for my personal crimes. I am very well aware that my sins, even if done from a weak spine, were done with my complete compliance and agreement, and I repent for that is dust and ashes.  And i think the plan is incredibly wise and beautiful. To start us off one way, to teach us to hate that way we are born into, to hate the beast within; to experience FIRST HAND what having a jelly spine is like; so eventually we will with all our hearts not want a jelly spine anymore...and then so appreciate the strong upright spine He will give us. And so appreciate the eternal life He will then give us.  And so marvel at the depth of His love illustrated by giving His Son to die for us. And by giving us a great understanding how serious a problem having a weak jelly spine is,  no one will ever want to go back to that weak state again, and everyone will appreciate fully the gifts of God which include His attributes, and which CANNOT be given unless they are appreciated to the highest extent.

Gina:
Meh~ 

Doug, thanks, but I don't think you got what I'm saying.  I'm not arguing that we have to die, I'm saying "deserving" of it.  If you sin because you were made too weak to resist the temptation to sin, it's still like asking a person with Down Syndrome or with Alzheimer's or Autism to behave properly in an adult setting.  I get that we have to die and that we must die in order to be refashioned.  I'm not arguing with that.  I don't have a problem with that.  Volunteering to sin?  Sure!  I volunteer gladly because that's what my flesh was designed to do!  Volunteer to please me.  I DO see the benefit in behaving properly! 

I just looked up the definition of deserve and it means "fit" or "merit" or "worthy", as in being "fit for destruction."   

The bible says that the wages that sin pays is death, but that sounds more palatable than hearing you "deserve" death.  I could stand to hear I need or must die, because that sounds like I have to be refashioned. 

I guess some people need to hear they "deserve" death in order for it to get their attention because they're so dense, nothing else will penetrate.

I respond better to:  You shall (must) die because to me it sounds more compassionate, lol.

Oh well.  Thanks, Doug.

DougE6:

Hi Gina

I understand your question. But I don't grasp the understanding of the emotion behind it. It seems like you do not actually "feel" you are deserving of death, even though you have done the actions, and did the actions with intention, on purpose, because you were designed to be weak form the beginning. I think that is what you are saying?

I think Paul in Romans 1 argued about our guilt and deserving death. Paul was the very one who wrote of vessels of honor/dishonor and Pharaoh and Gods sovereignity, etc, . Yet YET... he made it clear that God left man deeply accountable even in the midst of His sovereignity...

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Paul one of the worlds greatest exponents of Gods sovereignity, says man is without excuse in the depravity of His actions. And what about our conscience? Does not our conscience also bear witness against us?

Rom 2:15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

People are so depraved they KNOW they are guilty and deserve death, yet continue sinning....

Rom 1:32  Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

And they give approval to others unrighteousness, and celebrate in it.

I feel my guilt. I don't know about others, but most people in the world unless they are totally hardened, having a seared conscience, feels guilt and inner accusation of some sort. It actually helps keep them in line.

Is it possible that people having the understanding that it is God who made us weak actually begin to let a carnal understanding feel "excused"  about their personal sins?  I think that is spiritually very dangerous. 

You cannot emphasize Gods sovereignity to the point that you think you can excuse yourself and say you do not "deserve" death. You do. You did the crime, you do the time.

God is WAY smarter than you.  He has in His sovereignity, given you enough participation in the matter that He is FULLY JUSTIFIED in charging you with a crime and carrying out the penalty.

And it is a twisting of His sovereignity to attempt to use that as an excuse.  the scriptures say ..You are without excuse.

 

Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Gina

Just check out, WHO is saying "deserving death"...

Mar 14:62  Jesus said, "I am. And 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming with the clouds of heaven.'"
Mar 14:63  Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "Why do we still need witnesses?
Mar 14:64  You have heard his blasphemy! What is your verdict?" All of them condemned him as deserving death.

Of they that accuse, Jesus said :

Joh 5:45  Do not suppose that I will be the one to accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom you have set your hope.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses and for those who shall not enter the promised land of the Spirit of NT Liberty....

Gal 5:4  Christ has become nothing to any of you who are seeking acceptance with God through the Law: you have fallen away from grace.

The fallen away from grace, doesn't end there. We know all will be saved. 8)

Arc

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