> General Discussions
Deserving Death
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote from: Gina on January 13, 2012, 11:45:07 PM ---I'm struggling with the words "deserving death" I've seen throughout the bible. I hate to bring this up, but it's really buggin me.
See, I can understand that "dying we shall (must) die." But having to die because God must refashion us is not quite as offensive in light of the fact that God made us weak. To me, saying we deserve death because of our weakness of the flesh and propensity to sin because of it, is like saying to a person with a jelly spine, "This is how you walk upright..." and then when he isn't able to do what you say, proceed to say to him: "What?! You can't walk upright?! You deserve to die." It sounds so ludicrous.
Please be gentle with me in your responses, as you always are. I mean no disrespect to God or to you. Thank you.
--- End quote ---
As Ray is fond of saying: "We only experience Life. We cannot experience Death."
Steve Jobs: 'Death is life's best invention' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15197932
There are lessons we can only learn by experience. We cannot truly appreciate life without death.
Gina:
Thanks everybody! You guys are so sweet to respond. Yeah, I understand and accept that dying is the only way to get to live. I agree that I need to change.
Where my disconnect is, if I had no choice but to sin, how did I earn death? I know I've gotta have it.
But to me, death is like the gift of life; I didn't earn it, it's a gift! lol
Oh well, you all are so sweet respond to this thick chick.
p.s. Doug, you're not grasping the "emotion" behind my question maybe because you're reading too much into what I am saying. Try not to read too much into what I've said. It's just a question. I'm just having a little disconnect. :)
DougE6:
Gina is correct, we all "earned" death
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
"wages" are DEFINITELY something your earn. We do earn death.
I think your question " I had no choice" is a wrong question. You always choose. In each and every sin you DO choose.
You DID NOT choose to have been born in sin as David said...
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
David understood that. YET He also understood He was guilty and deserved whatever God would mandate for his sins of adultery and murder. WE ALL NEED TO HAVE HIS SAME ATTITUDE AS WRITTEN BELOW THAT DAVID PENNED LONG AGO....
Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!
Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.
Psa 51:6 Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Psa 51:8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you.
Notice David says MY SINS. No one else's sins, and he doesn't DARE lay any charge to God in the matter. In fact David says... so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. David pleads for his heart to be cleansed. There is NOT even a hint of "God you made me do this" David fully acknowledges he was formed in iniquity and conceived in sin, YET that is NOT used as an excuse for his action but ONLY to add to his sorrowful lament before God. I also, along wih David, fully acknowledge my deep iniquity inside me also, but through a broken and contrite heart I do not use that inborn iniquity as an excuse, NO I want that inborn iniquity to die, to be removed, along with all my willful sins being cleansed and cleaned away.
Samson:
--- Quote from: Gina on January 13, 2012, 11:45:07 PM ---I'm struggling with the words "deserving death" I've seen throughout the bible. I hate to bring this up, but it's really buggin me.
See, I can understand that "dying we shall (must) die." But having to die because God must refashion us is not quite as offensive in light of the fact that God made us weak. To me, saying we deserve death because of our weakness of the flesh and propensity to sin because of it, is like saying to a person with a jelly spine, "This is how you walk upright..." and then when he isn't able to do what you say, proceed to say to him: "What?! You can't walk upright?! You deserve to die." It sounds so ludicrous.
Please be gentle with me in your responses, as you always are. I mean no disrespect to God or to you. Thank you.
--- End quote ---
Hi Gina,
I think that I might know where you are coming from, it's sorta like the "feeling," I didn't ask to be Born, so why do I have to experience Evil or the suffer from the wicked acts of others, So then, Why do I DESERVE death, since I didn't ask to be here and didn't have any choice in what transpires thereafter. I'm checking My Dr. Strong's Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary and also My Esword, because the key word in your question is DESERVE. I don't know why your asking this question, does it have something to do with emotionally grasping the Why's or possible unfairness of this ultimate fate. From Our Carnal, Finite, Limited Human understanding, not much of anything seems fair as to the process, because I can relate to the Theme of your Post. Create Humans with Hearts exceedingly weak that choose to Sin, suffer the consequences from those Sins and for the most part, only God's Elect learn the lesson's from these trials and sufferings to make better choices and for the most part, the rest of Humanity experiences minimal change in this Age(Their short Lifetime).
Now, I didn't find the word DESERVE mentioned too often, although My NWT renders the Greek Word Axios as DESERVE, but the KJV renders it WORTHY. Lets see what it means in the Greek, maybe it doesn't have the same force or strength that We feel from the English, ie- " Nobody deserves any of this." Please Read Below !
Act 23:29 Whom I perceived to be accused of questions of their law, but to have nothing laid to his charge worthy of death or of bonds. Note: Worthy=Deserve
G514
ἄξιος
axios
ax'-ee-os
Probably from G71; deserving, comparable or suitable (as if drawing praise): - due reward, meet, [un-] worthy.
Axios is derived from Ago, See Below !
G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
Other scriptures using this Greek word Axios.
Act 26:31 And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying, This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds.
Luk 23:15 No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Note: Worthy or Deserving of Death from the passage sounds like the outcome of reaping the consequences of what one Sows.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Comment: All of the above Scriptures use the Greek Word Axios for "Worthy" or "Deserving," And once again the meanings as mentioned above from Dr. Strong have some latitude like: "Due Reward," "Bring Forth," "Suitable or Comparable."
Now, you mentioned in your Post about being gentle in response to Your question, please extend the same to Me, afterall, as John Michael reminds Me, I don't do well with Intellectual Women with the emotional nuances, it's that Male/Female Brain thing. But, to some degree, I agree that on an emotional Human Level with Finite Minds and exceedingly weak Hearts, there seems to be several things We don't deserve, but We didn't make the rules, Our Creator God did, so all We can do is try our best, care about Our choices, but don't worry and Pray incessantly to God to CAUSE in us to make better choices. Logically, what else can We do, even if we don't like it. Many times it's better when One Woman answers another Woman on these Emotional related questions, because sometimes I have no idea as to why God is doing this particular way, but my knowledge & experience is limited in comparison to Him.
Hope this Helps and doesn't get Me in trouble, sometimes it might with My Wife, because sometimes I'm capable of "driving Women up the wall," like Mr. Spock, ;).
Gina:
Thanks, Samson! That's starting to make sense. It's like, "You do this, this will be the outcome, this is what you get, it leads to this [death, in this particular instance] ."
(I'm sorry, but please, don't confuse me with your wife, Samson. lol. I don't know how you guys (dougE6) are reading emotion into my question. I'm not angry. I'm asking a question. There's no anger or "emotion" behind it.)
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