HELLO everyone...My first post. 2Thess 1

[lynne]

Hello Everyone
I visit here daily and learning so much. So thankful!!  I am reading both the teachings from Ray as well as the forum general discussions. This is my first post and hopefully someone can direct me to a second or third witness to these scriptures.

2Th es.1
[1] Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
[4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
[11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
[12] That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I kept reading this particular chapter over and over. As I came to the last 6 verses a question weighed on my heart. In verse 8 the "THEM" in this verse. Is it talking about ones in Babylon?  Are they "punished with everlasting destruction from the  PRESENCE of the Lord and from the GLORY of His power"?  Also does verse 10 mean that this punishment will happen "WHEN" he shall come to be glorified in his saints?

You see, I have never ever SEEN this before. Please direct me to anything Ray has taught. THANKS!! I appreciate you all so much!

[mavis92379]

Hi Lynne,

Verse 8 is talking about anyone who knows not God and especially those who do not obey the gospel which would certainly include those in Babylon. Yes verse 10 happens when He comes to be glorified in His saints just as it reads.

I would get familiar with the teachings on this site as a whole. Start with the 12 truths paper and than the lake of fire series. # 13 and 14 deal with this subject in depth.

Thanks,

Matt

[thetruth]

Welcome,lynne
Great to have you into the fellowship!I have posted an email of Rays that can confirm for you the question in your heart.

Dear Angelica:

        There are not two resurrection for the same person, but rather two classes of people who are resurrected, and the Elect are said to be in the "first" or "former" resurrection.  "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST [or former] resurrection" (Rev. 20:5). Now this is some question as to whether this verse is really Scripture or whether it was added to the manuscript. We still have conformation of two classes of people resurrected from other Scriptures:

        "...that there shall be a resurrection of the [1] JUST, and [2] UNJUST" (Acts. 24:15).

        "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, [1] some to everlasting [eonian] life, and [2] some to shame and everlasting [eonian] contempt" (Dan. 12:2).

        "And shall come forth; they that have done good unto [1] the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto [2] the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).

        Hope this helps your understanding.So the "them' in verse 8 are those who are in the Resurrection of Damnation!And is not eternal...but an eonian...an age..Those who are blinded to the truths of God...ie..The church on ever corner that teach false doctorine hell torture chamber,free-will,immortal soul etc.are NOT the elect!

[Kat]

Hi Lynne,

In verse 8 the "THEM" in this verse. Is it talking about ones in Babylon? 

II Thes. 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

"Them" in this verse is speaking of those that do not obey. Now how does anybody obey?

Act 5:32  And we are His witnesses of these things. And so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

Nobody can obey by their on determination of will, no matter how badly they want to. It is only by the Holy Spirit indwelling that anyone will obey. So only the Elect are singled out now to obey, through judgment.

1Pe 4:17  For the time has come for the judgment to begin from the house of God.

The rest of mankind will recieve judgment and "learn righteousness" in the next age, in the Lake of Fire, during the reign of Christ and the Elect.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

Here is part of an email that should help with this a bit.

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#zender ----------------

Jesus Christ is coming to put down His enemies when He returns, but not because they didn't "BELIEVE" the gospel, but because they didn't "OBEY" the gospel. And just who would ever propose such a thing? Let's try The Apostle Paul: 

II Thes. 1:8--"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

Or, let me quote it from their own Version:

"...in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are NOT OBEYING THE EVANGEL [gospel] OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

And let's not misunderstand the meaning of that word "obey" from the Greek word "hupakouo" which means "to HEED or CONFORM to a command" (Strong's #5219, p. 256).  Notice how this same Greek word is used in Acts 6:7--

"And the word of God grows, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem multiplied tremendously, Besides, a vast throng of the priests OBEYED THE FAITH" (Concordant Version).

Wow! Imagine that: The collective teachings of Jesus which are classified as "THE faith" is something that can and MUST BE, OBEYED!

And the reason that faith must be obeyed is because of another marvelous doctrine that one is not likely to ever hear quoted at a Concordant meeting, and it is this:

"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [image that, 'grace' is a VERB THAT DOES SOMETHING--IT TEACHES US SOMETHING. What?...] ...TEACHING US that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, RIGHTEOUSLY, AND GODLY, in this present world" (That again would be, The Apostle Paul to Titus, Titus 2:11-12).

And, so what I have said does not contradict salvation by faith for all humanity, but it certainly does add to it the teachings of Jesus and Paul and all the apostles, that there certainly is something to do, to obey, to live out. Failure to OBEY the Gospel will culminate in such an one not even being in the first resurrection or given eonian life ahead of the rest of humanity! There are hundreds and hundreds of commands by none other than Paul himself, clearly stating what a believe must obey. And you can take that to the bank, and you can take that to your grave. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are they "punished with everlasting destruction from the  PRESENCE of the Lord and from the GLORY of His power"?

Here is another email that should help with this part of your question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=13551.0 -----------------------------

Not only the wicked, but God's chosen Few also, have their flesh "destroyed."  That is the carnality within man--the part of man that is not subject to God or His law.  This part of man's human nature must be completely destroyed.  The word 'olethros' is found four times in the New Testament and is translated "destroy/destruction" by most translations.  I can see little difference between "destroy"--to ruin completely;  "ruin"--to destroy compretely;  and "exterminate"--to destroy completely.

Those who live by "the BROAD way," will end in destruction (Matt. 7:13).
And even Believers are to fear God who can "destroy soul & body" in Gehenna (Matt. 10:28).

Notice in II Cor. 5:5 that Paul instructed the Corinthians to turn over a fornicator to Satan
"for the destruction of the flesh," so that his spirit might be saved.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lynne]

Hi Lynne,

Verse 8 is talking about anyone who knows not God and especially those who do not obey the gospel which would certainly include those in Babylon. Yes verse 10 happens when He comes to be glorified in His saints just as it reads.

I would get familiar with the teachings on this site as a whole. Start with the 12 truths paper and than the lake of fire series. # 13 and 14 deal with this subject in depth.

Thanks,

Matt

Thanks Matt. I will continue to read the LOF series many times over. Also the "12 truths" I will read again and print out. God bless you!

[lynne]

Hi Lynne,

In verse 8 the "THEM" in this verse. Is it talking about ones in Babylon? 

II Thes. 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

"Them" in this verse is speaking of those that do not obey. Now how does anybody obey?

Act 5:32  And we are His witnesses of these things. And so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

Nobody can obey by their on determination of will, no matter how badly they want to. It is only by the Holy Spirit indwelling that anyone will obey. So only the Elect are singled out now to obey, through judgment.

1Pe 4:17  For the time has come for the judgment to begin from the house of God.

The rest of mankind will recieve judgment and "learn righteousness" in the next age, in the Lake of Fire, during the reign of Christ and the Elect.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

Here is part of an email that should help with this a bit.

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#zender ----------------

Jesus Christ is coming to put down His enemies when He returns, but not because they didn't "BELIEVE" the gospel, but because they didn't "OBEY" the gospel. And just who would ever propose such a thing? Let's try The Apostle Paul: 

II Thes. 1:8--"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

Or, let me quote it from their own Version:

"...in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are NOT OBEYING THE EVANGEL [gospel] OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

And let's not misunderstand the meaning of that word "obey" from the Greek word "hupakouo" which means "to HEED or CONFORM to a command" (Strong's #5219, p. 256).  Notice how this same Greek word is used in Acts 6:7--

"And the word of God grows, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem multiplied tremendously, Besides, a vast throng of the priests OBEYED THE FAITH" (Concordant Version).

Wow! Imagine that: The collective teachings of Jesus which are classified as "THE faith" is something that can and MUST BE, OBEYED!

And the reason that faith must be obeyed is because of another marvelous doctrine that one is not likely to ever hear quoted at a Concordant meeting, and it is this:

"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [image that, 'grace' is a VERB THAT DOES SOMETHING--IT TEACHES US SOMETHING. What?...] ...TEACHING US that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, RIGHTEOUSLY, AND GODLY, in this present world" (That again would be, The Apostle Paul to Titus, Titus 2:11-12).

And, so what I have said does not contradict salvation by faith for all humanity, but it certainly does add to it the teachings of Jesus and Paul and all the apostles, that there certainly is something to do, to obey, to live out. Failure to OBEY the Gospel will culminate in such an one not even being in the first resurrection or given eonian life ahead of the rest of humanity! There are hundreds and hundreds of commands by none other than Paul himself, clearly stating what a believe must obey. And you can take that to the bank, and you can take that to your grave. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are they "punished with everlasting destruction from the  PRESENCE of the Lord and from the GLORY of His power"?

Here is another email that should help with this part of your question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=13551.0 -----------------------------

Not only the wicked, but God's chosen Few also, have their flesh "destroyed."  That is the carnality within man--the part of man that is not subject to God or His law.  This part of man's human nature must be completely destroyed.  The word 'olethros' is found four times in the New Testament and is translated "destroy/destruction" by most translations.  I can see little difference between "destroy"--to ruin completely;  "ruin"--to destroy compretely;  and "exterminate"--to destroy completely.

Those who live by "the BROAD way," will end in destruction (Matt. 7:13).
And even Believers are to fear God who can "destroy soul & body" in Gehenna (Matt. 10:28).

Notice in II Cor. 5:5 that Paul instructed the Corinthians to turn over a fornicator to Satan
"for the destruction of the flesh," so that his spirit might be saved.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thanks Kat for directing me to Ray's articles.  I find myself weeping a lot while learning all these truths. Precious truths. I feel as if I am meeting my Abba Father for the first time ever. I see what I could not see before. God bless you.

[lynne]

Welcome,lynne
Great to have you into the fellowship!I have posted an email of Rays that can confirm for you the question in your heart.

Dear Angelica:

        There are not two resurrection for the same person, but rather two classes of people who are resurrected, and the Elect are said to be in the "first" or "former" resurrection.  "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST [or former] resurrection" (Rev. 20:5). Now this is some question as to whether this verse is really Scripture or whether it was added to the manuscript. We still have conformation of two classes of people resurrected from other Scriptures:

        "...that there shall be a resurrection of the [1] JUST, and [2] UNJUST" (Acts. 24:15).

        "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, [1] some to everlasting [eonian] life, and [2] some to shame and everlasting [eonian] contempt" (Dan. 12:2).

        "And shall come forth; they that have done good unto [1] the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto [2] the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).

        Hope this helps your understanding.So the "them' in verse 8 are those who are in the Resurrection of Damnation!And is not eternal...but an eonian...an age..Those who are blinded to the truths of God...ie..The church on ever corner that teach false doctorine hell torture chamber,free-will,immortal soul etc.are NOT the elect!

Thanks Jerry, yes you have helped me to see it clearly. I'm thankful. God bless you.