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[octoberose]

Hi All,
I really really appreciated the posts on assembling together.
Somewhere I read from Ray an explanation about children who were being sacraficed to a pagen god, and God said to them that He had never thought to have them do such a thing. A minister  I know reads that as God saying He never thought (or knew) that they would do such thing ( he doesnt believe God sees all in advance). I've spent a good hour looking for the reference so I can converse with my friend but I'm giving up and asking my fellowship here. Thanks for helping-it's driving me nutty.

[Shawn Fainn]

Not sure of the specific verse you're looking for, but it's probably somewhere in II Kings dealing  with Tophet & Molech in Hinnom that Ray writes about in:

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D2.htm

[acomplishedartis]

Usually talking-discuss with a minister is like expecting that someone whom speak one language (that it is not English) suddenly start understanding English. First he have to desire to learn the English language , and second he needs to put himself on a lower position of student and realize that most of what he was taught to be ''English'' before, was wrong.

But most ministers doesn't have the guts to admit they are wrong, are not used to be students anymore, and doesn't even care to learn the right language.   

[chav]

There are three references all in Jeremiah chaps 7,19 & 31 I think. One specifically states that God calls the passing of children through fire an abomination. But I guess if you're debating a minister you will probably find that despite those three powerful witnesses.He's unlikely to change his views.
Dave

[Samson]

Hi All,
I really really appreciated the posts on assembling together.
Somewhere I read from Ray an explanation about children who were being sacraficed to a pagen god, and God said to them that He had never thought to have them do such a thing. A minister  I know reads that as God saying He never thought (or knew) that they would do such thing ( he doesnt believe God sees all in advance). I've spent a good hour looking for the reference so I can converse with my friend but I'm giving up and asking my fellowship here. Thanks for helping-it's driving me nutty.

Hey Octoberese,

Judah was following the ways of the Nations by offering their Children, firstborn healthy Males to the god Molech. They would put the infant on the out stretched hands of this Idol god and the screaming Infant would roll into the Fire while the drums played loudly, a thing that was detestable to Jehovah and did not come into His HEART.

Jer 7:30  For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
Jer 7:31  And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

labe (Hebrew Word for Heart)
A form of H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything: -  + care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag [-eous], friend [-ly], ([broken-], [hard-], [merry-], [stiff-], [stout-], double) heart ([-ed]), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind (-ed), X regard ([-ed)], X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom.

Notice, one of the meanings for Labe is Consent, God did not consent with this detestable thing.

Jeremiah. 7:31(NWT) " They have built the high places of Topheth and the Valley of the son of Hinnom(Gehenna, Ge=Valley & Henna=Son of Hinnom), in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, A THING THAT I HAD NOT COMMANDED AND HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (caps for emphasis).

Jer 7:23  But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Jer 7:24  But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Jer 7:30  For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

Some Excerpt's of Ray from the Article Tophet & Hinnom.

In II Kings 23:10 we read:

    "And he [King Josiah of Judah] defiled [destroyed] Topheth which is in the valley of the children [son] of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire of Molech."

Molech was a god worshipped by the Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Ammonites. Foolish Israel began sacrificing her children in fire to this pagan god. The Canaanites were a Semitic people who occupied Palestine between the Jordan and the Mediterranean centuries before Israel invaded the land. The Phoenicians occupied what is today the area of Syria and Lebanon and were the foremost navigators and traders of the Eastern Mediterranean by 1250 B.C. The Ammonites (also a Semitic people) lived East of the Jordan in what is present day Jordan. The worship of Molech was well established centuries before Israel settled in the land of Palestine.

Topheth may come from the Aramaic root t-ph-t or the Hebrew toph or taph, meaning "to burn," while others interpret it to mean "altar" whereon children were sacrificed. Still others claim it means "drum," suggesting that they used drums to drown out the cries of the children being burned as sacrifices on the altar to Molech. Perhaps there is an element of truth in all three suggestions.

God commanded Israel to utterly destroy them all:

    "But you shall utterly destroy them, namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord your God has commanded you. That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should you sin against the Lord your God" (Deut. 20:17-18).

Although Israel killed many of these enemies in the promised land, they did not kill them all. Rather, we read this:

    "And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and amorites, and perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites. And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods" (Judges 3:5-6).

Why did they ever stoop so low as to have their own children pass through the fires of Molech at Topheth in this valley of Hinnom? It was because that was the way to appease the god Molech. Must pagan gods be appeased by such a display of torture? Yes, of course. Does Christian theology also teach that the God of heaven and earth can also only be appeased by having people burned in real fire endlessly in the pagan Greek hell of hades? Yes, it certainly does.

Octoberese, For that Minister you mentioned in Your Post above to suggest that God doesn't know in advance is ridiculous on His part. Of course, it probably wouldn't do Him any good to tell Him that,  , it might aggravate His Ego. It all reminds Me Me of Ray & Martin Zender saying jokingly: " Adam, where are you, " That's supposed to be God not knowing where Adam was after eating the forbidden fruit. Our God Knows everything, the beginning and the end of every matter.

Help this helped, Samson.

P.S. I decided to add one more passage, hence a modification of my original Post, please read below about how God feels about those that Sacrifice Children in the Fire to Pagan gods.

Deu 18:9  When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
Deu 18:10  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11  Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12  For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

[Kat]

Hi Octoberose,

I found something that might be what you are talking about in the Biblestudy 'Does All means All.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.msg45175.html ----------------

Notice this verse in Jeremiah. I covered this in my first series on ‘Hell’ - Hell Is A Hoax. 

Jer 32:35  And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind (Heb. - heart), that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

The Hebrew word for mind is heart, it certainly came into His mind... He knew they would do it, but there was no emotional pleasure in His heart, that they did this abomination. What? God is telling us that it never entered His mind (Heb. - heart), that people should burn in fire. That’s an abomination to Him. Yet we are told He is going to burn people in fire, for all eternity? God calls it an abomination! God is going to perform an abomination? For all eternity? Can you not see where the church blasphemes the name of God at every turn. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[octoberose]

THANK you! Jeremiah 7:31 was the specific verse I was looking for! I kept thinking Kings instead.
 

Usually talking-discuss with a minister is like expecting that someone whom speak one language (that it is not English) suddenly start understanding English. First he have to desire to learn the English language , and second he needs to put him self on a lower position of student and realize that most of what he was taught to be ''English'' before, was wrong.

But most ministers doesn't have the guts to admit they are wrong, are not used to be students anymore, and doesn't even care to learn the rightl language.   

I understand your view point and it is very often true. But this is a little different. I've heard him question the concept of eternal (he didn't seem sold on an age, but he seemed open to it), I've heard him question hell, though he can't get all the way to believing against it, and then I heard an entire sermon on how Jesus is the God of the old testament. I was pretty stunned. But, and it's a big but, he's an open theist which means he believes that God is confined to time (as I understand this) and also that Satan can thwart the will of God at times. That's a big old but. He accepts the concepts in a book called God at War which attempts to solve the good and evil problem.
 Because of BT I understand  Lucifer is not Satan, that God made Satan as an adversary, and that God created evil (and let's Satan do his work).This is I think the basic problem with him. You may ask why it's important to me and the truth is that I feel as 'called' to minister to  church as some of you to minister through this website. I'm in an unusual circumstance because my husband is a retired military chaplain and part of being his wife is going to church with him. The blessing for me is that, although he doesn't see eye to eye with me, he has no objection to me speaking what I believe is true. And though I know we are called out of Babylon, I really feel called out. I feel very different- it's just my body that sits with everyone else. Kind of like worshipping with God, and not forsaking the assembly as we talked about in a thread yesterday.
 So, if you think about it you can pray for me as I try to express God's Truth to a group who think they know it- though they have no governing body and they are free to believe as they want. I appreciate their selflessness- there's a lot of feeding the poor and giving to people who can't pay us back or knows who we are. I appreciate that. I've seen forgiveness when some would have held a grudge, and they never ask for a tithe- an offering, but not a tithe. So, for right now, this is where I am and I truly believe I can speak and maybe bring some comfort and information to those who seek it.
 Thank you all again.

[cjwood]

...That's a big old but.

just wanted to remind you octoberose to watch out for the "big old buts"!

i have enjoyed this thread, and especially rereading those sections of writings by ray.  i have followed your journey octoberose, regarding your situation with your husband.  i pray that God uses you as He sees fit.  keep studying His scriptures, and reading through the plethora of things ray has written about, and when/if you need to speak to others in the church you attend, the Lord will give you the words through His Spirit. 

claudia

[octoberose]

Thank you CJ, that's very kind of you.