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Author Topic: Law vs the Gospel  (Read 2393 times)

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newgene87

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Law vs the Gospel
« on: January 19, 2012, 05:52:46 PM »

So I'm on a spiritual quest of discerning the contrast, comparison, and/or differences of "the Law" and "the Gospel." Whether, speaking of the Law (of Moses, Torah as the teaching of God through Moses, and the Books of Moses) an speaking of the Gospel (of the Kingdom of God, of Jesus Christ, Matthew Mark etc etc). How should we, through Truth, handle this and making it applicable to us? Something got me about the Law and Truth. John 1:17 says, "for the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ". So i wonder, is he implying that truth didn't come through Moses through the law?? Obviously not grace, but truth did. Psalm 119:142 "THY LAW IS THE TRUTH" and "ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE TRUTH" v.152. so I wonder why would John put it like that saying truth is not through the law. Some of this argument maybe come from a  group of believers (I USED to learn of) who believe Jesus did not at all do away with the law and we must follow the law under Christ but I know thats impossible with the fact we couldn't wear certain fabrics, cut my hair a certain way and all the many laws in Leviticus.  Even then, does that "doing away" involve the "Torah" instructional views in the Law?  Even Deuteronomy says, "you shall keep and do them, for it shall be your wisdom and your understanding..." (4:6). In regards to these truths and in Christ, should we just throw away the whole Law and/or Torah and just be in the Gospels (which I believe dont cover everything) or combine the Law and the Gospels? Would love different viewpoints WITH scripture though. Thanks :)
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eggi

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Re: Law vs the Gospel
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 07:54:58 PM »

Hi,

The law is true, and the law is spiritual (Romans 7:14).

The law of Moses serves a purpose:

Gal 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 4:1-11: Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Rom 3:19-26 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 7:6- But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law teaches us what sin is: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2Ti 3:16)

The law brings us to Christ! But when we come to Christ we realize that He is ALL, ALL the shadows of the Law, He is the reality of the types, He is the Sabbath, He is the Passover, He is our Circumcision, He is ALL! He fulfills the law of Moses, which was merely a shadow of things to come. The grace of God changes our hearts, in ways that the law could not. So Christians do not need to keep the types and shadows, they keep the reality by obeying the spiritual law of Christ, which He enables us to obey by changing our hearts.

We must not return to keeping rituals and outward commandments.

Galatians 2:19-3:5 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with the Messiah. I no longer live, but the Messiah lives in me, and the life that I am now living in this body I live by the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not misapply God's grace, for if righteousness comes about by doing what the law requires, then the Messiah died for nothing. You foolish Galatians! Who put you under a spell? Was not Jesus the Messiah clearly portrayed before your very eyes as having been crucified? I want to learn only one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Having started out with the Spirit, are you now ending up with the flesh? Did you suffer so much for nothing? (If it really was for nothing!) Does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you because you do the works of the law or because you believe what you heard?

God bless you all,
Eirik
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 07:59:08 PM by eggi »
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Here’s how to tell if you have faith; how do you live… what do you do… what do you accomplish in life… what are your goals… What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?

Kat

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Re: Law vs the Gospel
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2012, 08:15:56 PM »


Hi newgene,

Here is LoF part 11 'The Depth of Satan - Who is Antipas?' where Ray speaks on the old covenant/law vs. the new covenant.
 
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html ----------------------------------

CHRIST AFTER THE FLESH VERSUS CHRIST AFTER THE SPIRIT

"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after [according to] the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, YET NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE [after the flesh]" (II Cor. 5:1).

"Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" (II Cor. 5:17)!

How many Christians believe that "IN Christ" we are a NEW creation and that ALL the old things have passed away and that ALL things are become NEW? How many pastors teach the NEW Covenant?

Christians sing: "Give me that OLD TIME religion—it’s good enough for me."

There was an OLD covenant, and now there is a NEW covenant. Do you know what the NEW COVENANT is? Theologians teach that the New covenant is keeping the OLD covenant, BETTER! That is unscriptural nonsense! They teach that we are to keep the law of Moses, BETTER, and we will fulfill the NEW testament.

Is the New Covenant patterned according to the Old Covenant? Let’s read it:

"For finding fault with them, He says, Behold, the days come says the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah [he is a JEW who is circumcised in his heart and spirit, Rom. 2:29]: NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT that I made with their fathers…" (Heb. 8:8-9).

So then, is the NEW covenant "according" or "NOT according" to the Old covenant?

Then why does the Church continue making the Old Covenant binding on Christians?

Christendom is attempting to believe in the New Covenant, while at the same time trying to live in the Old Covenant. This can’t be done. In fact, Jesus sternly warned against attempting to do such a contradictory and damaging endeavor:

"And He [Jesus] spoke also a parable unto them [the Pharisees]: No man puts a piece of new garment upon an old: if otherwise, then both the new makes a rent [tear], and the piece that was taken out of the new agrees not with the old [‘NOT according with the covenant which I made with their fathers (the OLD Covenant, Heb. 8:9)]. And no man puts new wine into old bottles [wineskins]; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish [be RUINED]. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires new; for he says, The OLD is better" (Luke 5:36-39).

This is a parable! Jesus is speaking of the Old and New Covenants. We cannot, we dare not, try to put the old with the new. BOTH WILL BE RUINED! Why don’t we believe Jesus? We can’t put the Old and the New together. And true to Jesus’ words, when people come into a knowledge of the New Covenant, they PREFER THE OLD BETTER!

Did you also notice that when we put these two covenants in their proper places (the Old is for babes to bring them to Christ, while the new is for those maturing into Sonship), that they are BOTH PRESERVED? Yes, both are preserved, but only if we don’t MIX THEM. Could anything be clearer.

The "Chosen" live by the New Covenant: The "Called" try to live by the New and the Old Covenants. They have never learned this simple lesson: "No servant can serve TWO masters…" (Luke 16:13). The two covenants are not even in "according" with one another—they are not to be "unequally yoked together," seeing that they are not equal. If you want to be a New Testament Christian, then you need to learn and know what the New Testament is all about.

THE OLD COVENANT VERSUS THE NEW COVENANT

Here is the most concise Scriptural description of the Old and New Testament that I can give you:

"For the Law was given by Moses [that would be the OLD Covenant], but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ [that would be the NEW Covenant]" (John 1:17).

Law is good, but grace and truth is better. Grace and truth is a much more demanding and much higher calling. If you aspire to be among the "chosen" you must learn what the New Covenant really is.

Here is a chart I prepared for a paper on The Law, which shows some of the many differences between the Old and the New Covenants—between Moses and Jesus:

Old Mosaic Covenant                           New Spiritual Covenant
 
OLD Covenant…II Cor. 3:14                  NEW Covenant…II Cor. 3:6
 
FIRST Covenant…Heb. 8:7,9:1             SECOND Covenant…Heb. 8:7,10:1-9
 
Came by Moses…John 1:17                  Came by Christ…Heb. 8:6,9:15
 
Law of God in STONE…II Cor. 3:3         Law of God in HEART…Heb. 10:16
 
Law of MOSES…Acts 13:38-39              Law of CHRIST…Gal. 6:2
 
Law of the flesh…Rom. 7:5-6                Law of the SPIRIT…Rom. 8:2
 
NOT of faith…Gal. 3:2                          Law of FAITH…Rom. 3:27
 
Yoke of BONDAGE…Gal. 5:1                 Law of LIBERTY…James 1:25
 
Law of SIN…Rom. 7:5-6                       Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS…Rom. 9:30-31
 
Law of DEATH…II Cor. 3:7                    Law of LIFE…Gal. 3:11, 6:8
 
Christ removes OLD…Heb. 10:9            Christ enacted the NEW…Heb.10:9
 
A SHADOW…Col. 2:14-17                    The REALITY…Heb. 10:1-18
 
FULFILLED…Matt. 5:17-18                    NOW IN FORCE…Heb. 8:6,10:9
 
Priesthood CHANGED…Heb. 7:12          UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood…Heb. 7:24
 
MANY sacrifices…Heb. 9:12-13              ONE sacrifice for sin…Heb. 10:12
 
IMPERFECT…Heb. 7:19                         PERFECT…Heb. 7:19
 
Blood of ANIMALS…Heb. 9:19               Blood of CHRIST…Matt. 26:28
 
Circumcision…Ex. 12:48                       Uncircumcision…Rom. 4:9-12
 
WORKS of law…Gal. 3:10                     NOT of works but GRACE…Eph. 2:8
 
REMEMBERS sins…Heb. 10:3                FORGETS sins…Heb. 10:17
 
YEARLY atonement…Heb. 10:3             PERMANENT atonement…Heb. 10:4
 
SINFUL priests…Heb. 5:3                     SINLESS priest…Heb. 7:26
 
AARONIC priesthood…Heb. 7:11           MELCHISEDEC priest…Heb. 5:5-10
 
MANMADE tabernacle…Heb. 8:5            HEAVENLY tabernacle…Heb. 8:2,11
 
Out of LEVI…Heb. 7:11                        Out of JUDAH…Heb. 7:14
 
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE…Heb. 7:18        POWER of ENDLESS LIFE…Heb. 7:16
 
NO inheritance…Rom. 4:13                  ETERNAL inheritance…Heb. 9:15
 
Sacrifice of ANIMALS…Heb. 9:13           Sacrifice of CHRIST…Heb. 9:28
 
Purified the FLESH…Heb. 8:13              Purged the CONSCIENCE…Heb. 8:14
 
PRODUCES wrath…Rom. 4:15               SAVES from wrath…Rom. 5:9
 
Perfected NOTHING…Heb. 7:19             Perfects BELIEVERS…Heb. 10:14
 
NO MERCY…Heb. 10:28                        COMPLETE MERCY…Heb. 8:12
 
NO justification…Acts 13:39                  BELIEVERS justified…Acts 13:39
 
BRINGS a curse…Gal. 3:10                   REDEEMS from curse…Acts 3:13
 
ABOLISHED…II Cor. 3:13                     CONTINUES IN GLORY…II Cor. 3:11
 
Brought DEATH…II Cor. 3:7                 Brought RECONCILIATION…II Cor. 5:18
 
ISRAEL ONLY…Deut. 4:7-8,5:3            ALL MANKIND…Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19
 
This chart by no means exhausts all the differences between the Old and New Covenants. Can you not see how totally different the New is from the Old? As God’s Word says, the New Covenant is, "NOT ACCORDING to the covenant that I made with their fathers…" (Heb. 8:9). When will we believe God instead of the traditions of men? I hope that you will not just look at this chart, but look up every Scripture and read it for yourself.

If you believe in Jesus Christ, you are in the Church. But if you are in Christ Jesus, then you are no longer in the physical carnal church, but in God’s spiritual Church—the very Body of Christ. Let me assure you on the authority of all the Sacred Scriptures that carnal [enmity filled hatred] minded Christians are not members of the spiritual body of Christ. Jesus Christ is preparing a "bride"—a VIRGIN bride. Our Lord will not marry a whore or prostitute.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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newgene87

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Re: Law vs the Gospel
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 08:34:23 PM »

Glorious. Thank you Eggo first for those Scriptures. It was almost as if Paul had signed on to the forum to answer my question cause it was fluid in reading and answering my question. And kat.....WOW...thank you for the reference to that paper.OBVIOUSLY I am guilty of not reading the paper, but wow. Ray answered that question on many levels. I was speaking to a lady today and she was explaining to me how we should combine the law and the gospels. And I needed my spiritual mothers and big brothers to help me :-) :-). Thank you so much. Time to go chew on this now....*preparing napkins and fork*.....
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Mbongiseni

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Re: Law vs the Gospel
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2012, 07:38:49 AM »

Newgene

I'm quite happy that you quickly acknowledge that Kate has referenced you straingt to the right answer. I am aware that sometimes  we often fall for this trap that we can draw a line between the two covenants: the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. We cannot draw a line and say from here you are now on the new or from there you still on the old. Why is that? Because : “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,  that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and we have Peter giving this wisdom: “… knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,  for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Peter 1:20-21
Everything that the Lord has preserved in the scriptures is for a reason. In mostly all Ray’s papers there is an emphasis of the fact that all comes from God and all is of God. ‘Christ the Word’ of God was manifest to the Old Testament times through the prophets and the law. There is no contradiction in scripture; we know that. Depending on the level of our spiritual maturity, we might find ourselves, whilst attempting to clarify certain confusions ending up clogging the minds of the very ones we are trying to help. In the New testament Christ says to those who were listening to him “…your fathers ate manna …and they are dead…but I am the bread of life..” and Paul says  …”let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. Everything points to Christ.
Although Kate gave some comparison the fact is she is not contradicting the scripture.

God Bless you as you read further.
Mbo
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Oatmeal

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Re: Law vs the Gospel
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2012, 11:53:11 PM »

I do have a lot of problem trying to understand what it is to live under the New Covenant.  It seems that living under the Old Covenant was very difficult but even under the Old Covenant there is a reference: the just shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).

How difficult is it to live under the New Covenant?  But perhaps there is a mistake in the asking of that question.  When does one actually enter the New Covenant?  The New Covenant is a new heart (Hebrews 8:10-12).  (Jeremiah 31:31, 33-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27 (from where I got the expression "new heart"), Ezekiel 11:16-20, Ezekiel 18:31-32).

When does one receive a new heart?  What is the difference between the called and the chosen?  Are these two questions the same question, that is, is it only those who have passed on to the point of being chosen (looking from the relative viewpoint) who have a new heart?

Here are the verses that I mentioned (except for Habakkuk).

Hebrews 8:10-12
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:  11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Jeremiah 31:31, 33-34
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:  33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 11:16-20
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come. 17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. 18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. 19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 18:31-32
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
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From Micah 7:9:  By the grace and call of Yahweh I will bear the trials of the narrow way, because I have no love, until He fully shows me my sin and I am judged by Him.  He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall see His righteousness.

Joel

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Re: Law vs the Gospel
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2012, 01:09:14 AM »

Some verses in 1st Timothy 1:8-10 come to mind.
8-But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9-Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10-For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Joel

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Kat

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Re: Law vs the Gospel
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2012, 02:55:24 AM »


Hi Oatmeal,

Quote
I do have a lot of problem trying to understand what it is to live under the New Covenant.  It seems that living under the Old Covenant was very difficult but even under the Old Covenant there is a reference: the just shall live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:4).

How difficult is it to live under the New Covenant?  But perhaps there is a mistake in the asking of that question.  When does one actually enter the New Covenant?  The New Covenant is a new heart (Hebrews 8:10-12).  (Jeremiah 31:31, 33-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27 (from where I got the expression "new heart"), Ezekiel 11:16-20, Ezekiel 18:31-32).

When does one receive a new heart?  What is the difference between the called and the chosen?  Are these two questions the same question, that is, is it only those who have passed on to the point of being chosen (looking from the relative viewpoint) who have a new heart?

I can only say what I understand of this and maybe it will give you a bit more to consider. The old covenant was given as a standard for righteous to live by, but people could not possibly obey, because we know that the heart is far to weak. Here is how Ray puts it.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html ------------
The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.
-----------------------------------------------------

So all of mankind fails miserably in obeying the law, "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23). So it comes to the point where we ask the same thing that Paul did.

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

And there is only one answer.

Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

So it is only "through Jesus Christ," and it takes more than just knowing about Him, the church know of Him and they are the called. You are chosen out from the called when the Father draws you to Jesus (Joh 6:44) and the Holy Spirit/Comforter becomes indwelling.

John 16:13  However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...

John 14:20  At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
v. 21  He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.

So the old covenant is about keeping the letter of the law, it is man's attempt to be righteous. The new covenant is of the heart, it is the attitude of righteousness, that comes from the Holy Spirit indwelling and gives you a 'new heart,' a circumcised heart.

Rom 2:29  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

The old covenant was given to prove to man he could not obey the law, but God has provided a better covenant, the One that leads to LIFE!

Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much He is also the Mediator of a better covenant, which was built upon better promises.
v.7  For if that first covenant had been without fault, then no place would have been sought for the second.
v. 8  For finding fault with them, He said to them, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will make an end on the house of Israel and on the house of Judah; a new covenant shall be,
v. 9  not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt," because they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not regard them, says the Lord.
v. 10  "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Laws into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

mercy, peace and love
Kat



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