The 'have's'......and the 'have-not's'.......

[GaryK]

It's me again Margaret.

Been on my mind for a while.  Bear with me.

The 'have's and the have not's'.

If one studies history there are two classes of peoples, the 'haves', and the 'have-nots'.      This is a general 'earthly' view.

The have's. 

They....have.   

There are divisions of have's, but all in all, they just have.   Prosperity.  And all things associated that riches can buy.  And, there are different levels of prosperity and riches.   Nonetheless, they are considered 'nobility'.  History details the nobles because history is written by the nobles, and changed by the nobles, both in gain and suppression, and also in changing the way history is written.  Appraising their 'nobility', er......exactly how noble they are.... is a different matter, but nonetheless, they are definitely the 'have's', deserved or not-deserved.

The have not's.   

They don't have.   

There are more divisions of the have-nots than the haves, because that's the genereal population.   This division includes slaves up to the commoners.  But, they're all owned in some way, at least in the eyes of nobility.  They are the ruled.  History is full of them, all down through the ages.   They're the succumbing class.

Think.

In both divisions we know that there are those whom God has called.  And there are, perhaps, those whom God has 'chosen'  in both classes.   Would God choose from those in the nobility class?   I don't know.  Probably.   He does, after all, work mysteriously.   Would God choose from the commoner class?   I don't know.   Probably.   In fact, the way my mind thinks, he would choose more from the commoner class.  These are the 'humble', they're easier to work with in changing the heart.
. 
But WE know, no matter what, all things are controlled by God.  Right?   We, of BT forum KNOW that.  Well, you do.  I still fight it tooth and nail.  Different matter entire.

But here's the thing.    No-one asks to be born.   No-one determines after their birth how their life will be.   Prosperity, wisdom, nobility, dumbness, slavery, common place, all of it, no one has control.  They THINK they do, but they don't.   God makes a man what he is.

Now.

Why would a loving, merciful, purposeful, planning, ancient, wise, who gives his only son......God.........

.........give most to so few a people, and less to so many a people, only to judge the minority of either on earth in their life-time so that they may lead and judge the majority of both who had so much less than others during their life on earth?

An exaggeration........here buddy and budd-ette, be born.....have nothing......live pain.....and then just for giggles........I'm going to throw you in the 'lake of fire' and burn out everything bad that you have desired on earth (that I designed for you desire to begin with).

What kind of rationale is that?    What could possibly be the finer point of the purpose?


What kind of loving, merciful God is that?

[Dave in Tenn]

The kind of God who is Spirit and is interested in Spiritual things.  None of this fleshly stuff matters--only what is Spiritually accomplished in the lives of individuals.  Both the rich and the poor have thier challenges to overcome.  All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.  There is no one righteous...no not one. 

Don't we tend to admire the poor who have Spiritual riches?  Isn't that at the core of our 'nostalgia' (misplaced or not) for the 'good old days'?  Don't we also admire humility in rich people?  Maybe especially these days when the me-generation and the notion of the 'entitled' rich has corrupted so many minds?

All I want to add is to seriously question this notion that the LoF is some 'Universalist' substitute for the Christian Hell with the only difference being that it is temporary.  Gary, to my mind the 'division' of people is between those God is saving "now" and those He will save later.  That's it.  Nothing to brag about except Jesus Christ who died and was raised from the dead.

I know we who have had a "hellish" outlook may tend to cling to bits of that doctrine--maybe because we don't know better yet...maybe because we like it that way. 

I also know we who have been raised with 'immortal souls living in heaven and hell' have a hard time truly believing in the importance of Resurrection.  Yet, it IS our only hope, and the hope of everybody EVEN THOSE who are being reserved for Judgement after that.  The difference is 'belief'.  God is the Saviour of ALL MEN...ESPECIALLY those who believe.

Anyways, that's how I divide the world. 

       

[John from Kentucky]

Hi gk,

I cannot help you with your questions.  I don't have a problem with how God does things.  Let's consider a few things.

All human beings are born, given life by God.  All human beings die, life taken by God.  All human beings will be resurrected back to life by God.

All will have everlasting life with perfect health, happiness and joy, no tears or problems, members of a family that owns everything, and of the increase of this way of life there will be no end.

What a rotten no good God!  How dare He bless mankind like that.  What a no good so and so.   

Get the point?  What is it that you want from God that He is not going to give you?

Do this.  Write one clear English sentence that says what you want.  Then tell us why you think God will not give it to you.

That is why I do not understand your point.  What do you want that you think you won't get---eventually?

John

[GaryK]

The kind of God who is Spirit and is interested in Spiritual things.  None of this fleshly stuff matters--only what is Spiritually accomplished in the lives of individuals.  Both the rich and the poor have thier challenges to overcome.  All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.  There is no one righteous...no not one.

Dave
Dave
(snaps fingers) Dave!!!!!.

You and I have sort of a musician's soul-ness, we dive deep.  Why load up the mules with chains and haul in the verses, isn't that what we see here on BT everyday on every single topic posted and addressed?   Nothing more than skin deep, nothing to the veins?

You, of all people, would know that's not what I'm looking for..........but the rest of what you say.............hmmmmm...juicy....

Don't we tend to admire the poor who have Spiritual riches?  Isn't that at the core of our 'nostalgia' (misplaced or not) for the 'good old days'?

Yes, but my granny had that Dave.  I've learned that she was mis-placed in her 'eastern-star' admiration and loyalty.

Don't we also admire humility in rich people?

Name'em Dave.  I can't think of a finger-full.

Maybe especially these days when the me-generation and the notion of the 'entitled' rich has corrupted so many minds?

That's Hollywood.  TV was invented in the last hund-erd years.  Do you really think I give  a sh...t about the Brad Pitt's or Kim K's of the US?   (crap, let me walk and check my neat little hand-held I-phone for you tube..or something...

All I want to add is to seriously question this notion that the LoF is some 'Universalist' substitute for the Christian Hell with the only difference being that it is temporary.

There.

That's it.

WHY is it so different Dave?  What?

Tell me where it ISN"T a substitute.   I get lost....right there.   I see NO difference...........except the difference.......


....the difference being........as you said..........it's temporary.

Don't we all end up in heaven singing praises on the chocolate rock?

[GaryK]

Hi gk,

I cannot help you with your questions.  I don't have a problem with how God does things.

Good for you John, I do.

Let's consider a few things.

All human beings are born, given life by God.  All human beings die, life taken by God.  All human beings will be resurrected back to life by God.

All will have everlasting life with perfect health, happiness and joy, no tears or problems, members of a family that owns everything, and of the increase of this way of life there will be no end.

What a rotten no good God!  How dare He bless mankind like that.  What a no good so and so.       
Get the point? 

Don't lecture me John, you're smarter than that. (I don't normally feel a whole buncha-love in my heart for anyone John, but know that I mean that sentence to you in the warmest......in the warmest, take it to heart

What is it that you want from God that He is not going to give you?

Answers. 

Now.   

I've waited patiently.

Do this.  Write one clear English sentence that says what you want.

I thought that's what I did.   Bad English I reckon. 

Then tell us why you think God will not give it to you.

I've watched you grow on this forum John.  That's where you shine and I don't.   You've been given the gift of believing.   I haven't....................so far.  Be easy on those that stumble.

That is why I do not understand your point.

You don't?   God seems partial.   Need more?

What do you want that you think you won't get---eventually?

No John, what do I think I WILL get.........that everyone else WILL get ALSO........no matter what kind of life given..........crap or no crap.........blessed beyond and them some..........or not blessed other than life itself....given by him to begin with........in the earlier stages of planning. 

I've lost the way to see the sense in it.

That's the point.  Do you not see the point now???

[John from Kentucky]

God is not partial.  He is no respecter of persons.  All will die.  A dead man takes nothing with him.

You say, "I've lost the way to see the sense in it".  That's a good English sentence.

None of us can help you.  Only God can help you see the sense of things.  If He wants you to see the sense of things now, then you will.  If not, you will see it later.

I wouldn't sweat it.  Worrying about stuff doesn't help.  I like you.  You make a fine addition to the Family of God.  Be cool.   

[GaryK]

God is not partial.  He is no respecter of persons.  All will die.  A dead man takes nothing with him.

You say, "I've lost the way to see the sense in it".  That's a good English sentence.

None of us can help you.  Only God can help you see the sense of things.  If He wants you to see the sense of things now, then you will.  If not, you will see it later.

I wouldn't sweat it.  Worrying about stuff doesn't help.  I like you.  You make a fine addition to the Family of God.  Be cool.   

None of us can help you.

I know...........

I know that John.

Straight talk.

Respectible.

I can deal with respectible.

Only God can help you see the sense of things.

And that's why I said, John, I've watched you grow on this forum and that sentence cuts to the bone.   Whether I like it or not, it's true.  And appreciated.

To the heart.

~S!~

gk

[Dennis Vogel]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. As, first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

William Shakespeare

We all play the part God gave us.

[Dave in Tenn]

Dang, Gary.  The 'verses' have become less and less proof-texts for various doctrinal positions and more and more written in my heart.  To ask me to leave them out is to ask me to remove what pumps the juice through those veins you mentioned.

Maybe I was sloppy in saying what I said.  What I SHOULD have said is that our understanding (and thus preaching) the LoF should not be a stroke by stroke substitute for the Christian DOCTRINE of Hell.  Some ways in which it IS different besides being "not eternal":

1.  It is Spiritual language describing a Spiritual process.  It is neither literal fire nor a literal Lake.  Neither is it "symbolic" of a 'place' that is LIKE a fire and a Lake.  The Lake of Fire is God.  I don't know what it will literally be like after we rise, and niether does anybody else.

2.  It is not seperation from God.  It is accomplished (like Judgement now) in the PRESENCE of the Lamb.  The Lake of Fire is God.

3.  It is Righteous judgement.  Take a look at who and what is "cast" into it.  It's the goodness of God that draws men to repentance.  (sorry, couldn't resist).  I have to believe mercy trumps justice.  It was good for me (though difficult and wrenching) to see "the beast rising out of the sea" and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Why should I think it will be different for the great mass of humanity?

4.  It is Beneficial.  If you can only handle "chocolate rocks" (of course I don't believe that's true of you), then everybody will get their "chocolate rocks".

5.  It is the same Fire that purges believers "now". 

I could go on, but Ray has about 1500 pages and this is just a forum post.  I don't know anything that didn't start there.

To be honest, I'm not sure I can count many humble poor people in my family's past.  No matter how poor or 'humble', they pretty much all thought they were better than some people.  This is the south, after all.  I'd repeat "there is none righteous, no not one", but I don't want to be skin deep.

Anyways, like John said, I have no beef with the way God is creating humanity.  All this is His and He can do anything He wants with it.  He is God and I am not. 

[Kat]

Hi gk,

I'm thinking what you are asking about was the main point of Ray's most resent paper. In this life there are so many different circumstances, you mentioned a few "prosperity, wisdom, nobility, dumbness, slavery, common place," but all of these differing life circumstances and there are an infinite number, is creating unique individual out of us all.

All the life events, the good and the bad, is building a foundation of character in people or a base mold, if you will. Now this base of character will have to be perfected at some point, but you need something to start with, but in judgement the good will remain and bad burned away. Now the out come is not to bring everyone to become the very same, not at all, God wants unique individuals, but just to make the individual righteous.

So if you can see what I'm saying all these diverse lives that people are born into and yes without any say (how else could it be), is for a reason. In order for God to have every person to become an unique individual, there must be all of these great diversities in living situation... the haves and the have nots.

Now we come to you final question.

Why would a loving, merciful, purposeful, planning, ancient, wise, who gives his only son......God.........

.........give most to so few a people, and less to so many a people, only to judge the minority of either on earth in their life-time so that they may lead and judge the majority of both who had so much less than others during their life on earth?

An exaggeration........here buddy and budd-ette, be born.....have nothing......live pain.....and then just for giggles........I'm going to throw you in the 'lake of fire' and burn out everything bad that you have desired on earth (that I designed for you desire to begin with).

What kind of rationale is that?    What could possibly be the finer point of the purpose?

Well as I have been saying it is to create in all human beings uniqueness, so that God will have a family of all these interesting individuals. But aren't you saying that God is unjust because He will "throw you in the 'lake of fire' and burn out everything bad that you have desired on earth"? Well you know that now in this age people have a weak heart and we desire carnal things of the flesh and we care more for self than others. Yes God did give us this nature, but what He is creating in human beings is not simple and requires multiple steps.

This is the first part/step where we develop a base character, there is going to be more steps in the process for it to be completed. Maybe things will get flipped around in the next age and the haves will be the have not and the have nots will have much, I would think it's a possibility. Yes this part is difficult and there is more difficulties to come I'm sure. But it is a plan by a Master Designer who know what must be done to turn out the best results in the end.

Now I think the LOF is not one size fits all. Judgments will be in exact proportion to fit every person and situation to bring about the outcome of the person to learn righteousness. This will no doubt be more difficult for some than others and needs to be. Some may need a tremendous amount of heat to burn out some character flaws. But let's think about a little child that died an is raised, do you think that they will face suffering in the LOF? I certainly do not think so, they will be nurtured and raised up and taught the right way to live. But you have to understand as with the chosen now, when judgment comes on the rest there are fundamental things that must be changed and the weak heart that is in man must be changed.

Eze 36:26  And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
v. 27  And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.

So don't get so caught up in what is happening now, that you do not see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hope this helps a bit and gives you a little to think about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

Everything really is as it should be, right now, and it is God's responsibility to set things right with the world, we are merely trying  overcome it. Anyway, I guess you should prevent all the responses that you are listening before even posting...

Here is where I think that most of us fail. We tent to think that we really know what others are suffering by just watching them on the outside, and then we thank God because we are not like them. But there is much more than just reading and rereading. We might must come to the point where we are willing and ready to put our selves on anybody's shoes and experience life from different perspectives. And if you think more about it, this rich and poor thing is really a state mind (Paul experience them all, and he had the strength enough to don't be questioning God for the way He does things).

What we need is to keep repenting and  think not that we are better.  We are just the clay, on this life we can't and never will be able to see things as a whole as God can see them, Now you already know what the Scriptures have to say for real regarding God's absolute and final purpose. So, I guess there is not much more to say...

[arion]

You know, I look at some of these deep questions and things that really bother people and then I look at myself and ask if there is something wrong with me.  I really don't have any of those deep questions and am content in the knowledge I already have.  It's not that I don't want to learn more or have deeper revelation but when I consider all the plethora of questions that bother people I wonder what benefit is there to it?  I guess perhaps in heart I'm just a simpleton.  Let God be God. 

Because of God using a man named Ray Smith I've come to really learn of his love for his creation and the promises in the scriptures that God, in time will save and restore his entire creation.  I've come to really learn that God is good, God is love and for the present time terrible things still happen in this world even to those who we would consider to be 'good' people.  I don't try to figure it out.  It's all a part of his plan.  Why do some seem to suffer so much and others so little....I don't know.  But I don't know if I need to know, God knows and it's enough.

I'm not lifting myself up against those that do have all the questions because as I stated earlier then I wonder if there is something wrong with me that these deep issues really don't bother me that much.  And believe me, it's not that I've been blessed with an easy ride in this life.  I could fill a book as many of you can. 

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

[Samson]

It's me again Margaret.

Been on my mind for a while.  Bear with me.

The 'have's and the have not's'.

If one studies history there are two classes of peoples, the 'haves', and the 'have-nots'.      This is a general 'earthly' view.

The have's. 

They....have.   

There are divisions of have's, but all in all, they just have.   Prosperity.  And all things associated that riches can buy.  And, there are different levels of prosperity and riches.   Nonetheless, they are considered 'nobility'.  History details the nobles because history is written by the nobles, and changed by the nobles, both in gain and suppression, and also in changing the way history is written.  Appraising their 'nobility', er......exactly how noble they are.... is a different matter, but nonetheless, they are definitely the 'have's', deserved or not-deserved.

The have not's.   

They don't have.   

There are more divisions of the have-nots than the haves, because that's the genereal population.   This division includes slaves up to the commoners.  But, they're all owned in some way, at least in the eyes of nobility.  They are the ruled.  History is full of them, all down through the ages.   They're the succumbing class.

Think.

In both divisions we know that there are those whom God has called.  And there are, perhaps, those whom God has 'chosen'  in both classes.   Would God choose from those in the nobility class?   I don't know.  Probably.   He does, after all, work mysteriously.   Would God choose from the commoner class?   I don't know.   Probably.   In fact, the way my mind thinks, he would choose more from the commoner class.  These are the 'humble', they're easier to work with in changing the heart.
. 
But WE know, no matter what, all things are controlled by God.  Right?   We, of BT forum KNOW that.  Well, you do.  I still fight it tooth and nail.  Different matter entire.

But here's the thing.    No-one asks to be born.   No-one determines after their birth how their life will be.   Prosperity, wisdom, nobility, dumbness, slavery, common place, all of it, no one has control.  They THINK they do, but they don't.   God makes a man what he is.

Now.

Why would a loving, merciful, purposeful, planning, ancient, wise, who gives his only son......God.........

.........give most to so few a people, and less to so many a people, only to judge the minority of either on earth in their life-time so that they may lead and judge the majority of both who had so much less than others during their life on earth?

An exaggeration........here buddy and budd-ette, be born.....have nothing......live pain.....and then just for giggles........I'm going to throw you in the 'lake of fire' and burn out everything bad that you have desired on earth (that I designed for you desire to begin with).

What kind of rationale is that?    What could possibly be the finer point of the purpose?


What kind of loving, merciful God is that?

Hello GK,

Sounds a little like your Venting about Life's inequalities & injustices by comparing the obvious, it's a speculation on my part, not a judging or an attack, ie- The Rich seem to prosper & always get their way in this Life, while MOST of the rest of Us eat Crow. It's all true, an experience of Evil at varying degree's and intensities in this Age(Our Lifetime prior to the Resurrection). I believe it was Asaph that noticed basically the same thing, The Rich & Wicked seem to prosper, Not necessarily assuming that All the Rich & Powerful fully exploit everyone else. It all doesn't seem fair, based on the degree of suffering that is received.

True, none of Us asked to be Born, We had no choice in the matter, one of the many reasons why the Free Will teaching is ridiculous and None of Us asks to Die, unless the suffering is extremely unbearable. The " I didn't ask to be Born reality," is precisely why "Endless Punishment" in one of it's different forms is insane, Well, insane to All of Us, at least to Us at B.T.

Consider this GK, Our Finite Minds can only appreciate & comprehend in part as to Why God is doing things in a particular, ie- the degree of suffering received, the Rich SEEMINGLY being happy Materially & always getting their way, Most of Mankind eating Crow & being expendable Slaves, Servants & Tools for the use of the Nobility, etc, etc, etc. I(Samson) don't emotionally fully understand it either, am I supposed to, apparently not, How much crap are We supposed to endure, Whatever God has planned is the obvious answer and only He(God) fully knows why.

It may not satisfy you to hear that God knows each and every one of Us, better than We know ourselves, So He knows how much an "Experience of Evil" We individually need to receive in order to Humble Us. As a result, We get Chastised(Kolasin- Pruned, Corrected) to some extent in this Lifetime through these experiences. However, God isn't even working with the high majority of Mankind at this time, save God's Chosen Elect out of the many Called and in reality, the Scriptures are only meant for them to understand in this Age and only applicable to them.

Personally, I've brought this type of venting to Kat through phone conversing regarding the seeming outrage as to why God has Evil planned & employed by Wicked Humans & Demons to such a high degree, to my emotionally infected Finite Mind, I don't really like & appreciate it. Intellectually, based on what We've learned here & elsewhere, the answers are clear, but the intensity of the result received from Evil or Wicked Acts appears extreme & unfair.

From an Intellectual & Spiritual frame of Mind, when I'm in a calm state & conditions are momentarily rational in Life's state of affairs, the primary answer from John From Kentucky is Mine too, it's the logical One: God Controls it All, decides how it transpires, Born, Die, Resurrection, Eventual Salvation, An Individual Cleanup(Purification) either Now(Gehenna Fire) or Later(Lake Of Fire), etc, HE'S RIGHT, even if We don't(including Me) don't particularly Like the Process. However, look at the Orthodox Christian Alternative to This: 1) Eat Crow most of Our Lives with the prospect of Endless Punishment even though We didn't ask to be Born. 2) The Most Wicked Characters in History are not reformed, 3) God isn't really total Love, only in context, 4) The wicked "Spiritual Leaders of Christendom & their Contradictory Creeds are right & they were right, 5) And if numbers 1 through 4 are right, We might as well toss the Scriptures down the toilet because it makes God out to be a Psychopathic Liar who really doesn't care about His uniquely designed individually created individuals.

Thanks be to God that it ain't True, Numbers 1 Through 5. I've often mentioned to some of My Bible Truths Phone Buddies that if anyone would read the Bible from Genesis through Revelation in it's entirety with no Holy Spirit influence, no prior teachings from any Teachers, Pastors or Church Denominations or any type of persuasion prior to reading it and proceed to read it in it's entirety, Analytically, Objectively & Carefully; One would probably conclude that it was written By a Multi-Personality(Faces of Eve), Psychopathic, Homicidal, Hypocritical, Contradictory Two faced Liar. BUT THANKS BE TO GOD, THAT'S NOT THE CASE(caps are mine for emphasis).

Hope this Helps, As JFK mentioned: Only God can help Us make sense of this, We have to individually take this up with Him, because I'm don't fully know Why, only in part, Samson.

[Rene]

I've lost the way to see the sense in it.

That's the point.  Do you not see the point now???[/color][/font]

Hi gk,

Instead of the whole world being a stage, I believe the whole world is a classroom.  There is a lesson to be learned in everything that people experience in this life.

You say you have "lost the way" and I believe you.  I also believe your example is a valuable lesson for those of us who do not question how our Creator does things. 

Faith truly is a "gift" that only God can give.  You may be lost now, but that's not the end of your story.  I have faith and confidence that you, too, will be found, and when that happens, God's way of doing things will make perfect sense to you.

René