Does anyone else here fear God? I do. I am scared that the eternal torment
stuff might be true.
I have been following various online discussions (on other sites) about the
ultimate fate of the damned. There seems to be three possibilities:
1. eternal torment (the mainstream favorite)
2. annihilation (with or without preliminary torment)
3. universal reconciliation (with or without preliminary torment)
For every scripture or argument in favor of one option,
there are others against. The evidence and arguments seem
more or less equal, at least to my untrained mind.
This has been hurting my head for weeks.
I have no ego in this, no axe to grind.
How do others cope with the dilemma?
I appreciate all advice.
Hi Marrcus,
Fear not, none of it's true. For those adherents of the "Eternal" or Endless Punishment adherents and their claimed certainty of it, I thought of asking them this: " Which one is it?" What I mean by that question is as follows: Is it Eternal Separation from God's presence; Is it a literal physical Hell Fire where people literally feel burning Fire; Is it Annihilation or Endless Death(Non Existence). There are those who advocate Endless Punishment for a certainty, but aren't certain which form it actually is. For a Man Made Pagan originated doctrine of such magnitude to be true & so important individually to who ever lived, wouldn't those who advocate this outcome know exactly what it entails. True, some do have a specific interpretation of Endless Punishment, but in the real world of "Orthodox" circles, they don't agree on exactly what this "supposed" punishment actually is. For Me, that's illogical & inconsistent, especially for a subject of such importance & magnitude.
There are too many flaws & inconsistencies throughout the Scriptures to warrant there being any Truth to this Endless Punishment Doctrine in any of it's forms for it to be correct. For if Endless Punishment is true based on the Scriptures, you would have to throw the Bible in the garbage, because it would lead to too many contradictions, inconsistencies and clearly present God as a liar and since We know that God doesn't Lie(Titus. 1:2), there would have to be proof that the Scriptures don't contradict & information that easily disproves the Doctrine of Endless Punishment. I will make some points below, including some of Ray's material.
If Endless Punishment were True, it would have to be consistently & clearly taught right from the beginning(Genesis). Cain was angry with His Brother Abel, God knowing His heart condition in this matter warned Cain regarding His attitude & Countenance. Cain Murdered His Brother anyway & God sent Cain to the land of fugitiveness, warning that no one was to kill Cain or He would be avenged. Cain responded saying His punishment was too great. What ! His punishment was too great, He just murdered His Brother. No warning of Endless Punishment mentioned in that passage. Wouldn't God warn people of Endless Punishment before distributing it. That makes no sense at all.
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, MY PUNISHMENT IS GREATER THAN I CAN BEAR.
Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Lets consider the Flood in Noahs Day, no mention of Endless Punishment for those that didn't listen to Noah. Read Below !
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
DESTROY: mâchâh
maw-khaw'
A primitive root; properly to stroke or rub; by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out).
Yes, they were DESTROYED OR ERASED in this Lifetime, but no Hebrew words attached that mean Endless. Ohlam usually mistranslated "Forever" is not mentioned in connection with this DESTROYED at Genesis. 6:7. A Side Note: Ohlam is an almost exact equivalent of the Greek Aion which means " An Age," a period of time with a beginning and an ending.
Lets consider Sodom & Gomorrah, surely if anyone deserves " Endless Punishment," those Guys would get it, according to Orthodoxy.
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Yes, the inhabitants were destroyed, no indication from this Account that it was permanent. Let's read what Ezekiel & Jesus have to say about Sodom & Gomorrah. Read Below !
Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Eze 16:51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
Eze 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.
Now the Punch line concerning Sodom & Her Abominations, read below.
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to THEIR FORMER ESTATE, then thou and thy daughters shall return to YOUR FORMER ESTATE.
FORMER ESTATE: qadmâh
kad-maw'
From H6923; priority (in time); also used adverbially (before): - afore, antiquity, former (old) estate.
SHALL RETURN: shoob
A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again: - ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back) X consider, + continually, CONVERT, DELIVER(again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, RECOVER, refresh, relieve, render (again), X repent, requite, rescue, RESTORE, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.
CAPS FOR EMPHASIS MINE IN THE ABOVE.
Lets read what Jesus has to say about Sodom, read below.
Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom,IT WOULD HAVE REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
TOLERABLE: anektoteros
an-ek-tot'-er-os
Comparative of a derivative of G430; MORE ENDURABLE: - more tolerable.
True, the inhabitants of Sodom & Gomorrah will be judged after being Resurrected, but if they had witnessed Jesus mighty works, they would have remained until His day. Why would they receive Endless Punishment if they didn't even get the opportunity to witness what Capernaum & the other Cities were able to. That sounds like a double standard, that's what Human injustice is all about, not perfect justice from Jesus.
So, in all of the above, We have Three examples: Cain's Murder; Noahs Day; Sodom & Gomorrah where not mention of Endless Punishment, Destruction or Fiery Hell torment is mentioned. All of these Three Cases involve extremely Wicked Cities & individuals. Wouldn't God specifically & clearly warn people of Endless Punishment in advance before implementing it.
Now, I decided to only Address this aspect of why Endless Punishment is unscriptural, other Forum Members will probably other considerations. Sorry, I don't have time now to continue, hope you understand.
Read Rays Article: THE ORIGIN OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT(LAKE OF FIRE PART XVI), I'll copy & paste a few quotes for you in blue.
ADAM AND EVE WERE NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall SURELY DIE" (Gen. 2:17.)
The wages for eating the forbidden fruit was "you shall surely die." And:
"In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground [not be turned into a terrorist's hellhole of endless torture in some pagan hell]: for out of it [the ground] were you taken; for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:19.)
Death began immediately. Notice a better translation of Gen. 2:17:
"…to die shall you BE DYING" (Concordant Old Testament.)
Their life was but a slow death until they returned to the dust of the ground. God said that their judgment for sinning was to be RETURNED to the ground from whence they came. They didn’t come from some terrorist's hellhole of torture in fire, so how could they "return" to such a place when God plainly stated that they would "RETURN unto the ground?" They came from the earth and they returned to that earth.
God cursed the serpent, and God cursed the ground, but nowhere did God curse Adam and Eve. God pointed out the different judgments against Adam and Eve, such as multiplied childbearing pains, sorrow in gathering food all the days of his life, thorns, thistles, and sweat, but no mention of punishment in death or after death.
If Adam and Eve were to have a far greater punishment (trillions and trillions of times greater) at death or in death or after death, why did not God warn them of such a horrible destiny? Why would God tell them one thing and then pull a trick on them and do something totally different when the time came?
CAIN WAS NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
Notice very carefully God’s conversation with Cain:
"But unto Cain and to his offering He [God] had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why are you wroth? And why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not well, SIN lies at the door. And unto you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him" (Gen. 4:5-7.)
God warned Cain that if he did not do well, that sin would be at his door. But did God say "endless torment and punishment would be at his door?" No.
"And Cain talked with Abel, his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper? And He said, What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries unto Me from the ground.
And now are you cursed from the earth which has opened her mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand: When you till the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto you her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shall you be in the earth" (Verses 8-12.)
Did God threaten Cain with "endless punishment in some subterranean hellhole of torture in fire?" No. But notice Cain’s reply:
"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me out this day from the face of the earth, and from Your face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth: and it shall come to pass, that every one [any one] that finds me shall slay me" (Verse 13-14.)
CHRISTENDOM CONTINUES TO PERPETUATE SATAN’S FIRST RECORDED LIE
As the early Egyptian settlers along the Nile lost virtually all truth they had before the flood and through their ancestral family of Noah, they replaced that lost knowledge with strange and fanciful myths. And, as they lost knowledge of the True God, which brought them safely through the flood, they began worshipping man-made gods. Although they lost sight of the True God and His teachings, they did not, however, lose sight of the world’s first giant lie.
That first recorded lie in history survived the first couple of thousand years, survived the flood of Noah’s day, survived the expansion of civilization in Mesopotamia, through all the myriads of Egyptian mythology, the Exodus, the four world-ruling kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, survived the introduction of Christianity into the world, survived the Dark Ages, the Middle ages, the Renaissance, the Reformation, survived the modern translations of Scriptures, and is presented flourishing in a frenzy of Christian world evangelism.
This "damnable heresy" is taught and believed with such vigor and enthusiasm, that to speak the Scriptural truth against it is to open oneself up to ridicule and persecution from the Christian community. Any outsider coming into the Christian faith would surely believe that it was God who said, "you shall NOT SURELY die," and that it was Satan who said, "you shall SURELY die" for that is what the Church believes and teaches, contrary to the hundreds of Scriptures which state otherwise.
This lie is the very bedrock of not only orthodox Christian theology, but also that of virtually every pagan and heathen religion on the face of the earth, throughout the history of the world.
(Although the pagans may tolerate what we are teaching at bible-truths.com, I guarantee you that the Church will not. There will come one day a reckoning with bible-truths.com, and you can take that to the bank. Even the "Church of Satan" will be tolerated, but the Truths of God will never be tolerated. When the Church leaders perceive that their pagan heresies are being exposed, and it begins to look as if their goose that is laying the golden eggs of tithes may be getting ready to fly the coop, there will be hell to pay.
The fear of the hereafter; the fear of being tortured in some hellhole of eternal fire, the fear of the clergy and the authority of the Church, this hideous, hideous fear, is the goose that lays the golden eggs. It is in fact, the money machine that keeps the wealth flowing into the Christian coffers.)
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Topic: Does anyone else here fear God? (Read 8447 times)