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Author Topic: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis  (Read 7646 times)

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Revilonivek

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Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« on: January 30, 2012, 02:55:12 PM »

I just read Ray's audio transcript of the mobile conference 2008. I want to make sure I understand about the genesis part of 6 days creation.

I knew there was something wrong with the Genesis story because it doesn't quite add up according to Christendom. It just didn't make sense. 

I was aware of bad usage of translational words when it comes to English from different languages because of Noah's flood story.

For example, about Noah's flood, Christians take the word "earth" and assume it means ALL Land OF THE WHOLE WORLD. But really the Hebrew word used for "earth" in English is erets. Which should be translated to "land" not "earth". I looked up the scriptures with the word Erets, it is used to refer to a locality-it shows that "erets" was used to show specific lands: "The whole land [erets] of Havilah (Gen. 2:11)," “whole land [erets] of Ethiopia” (Gen. 2:13), "the land [erets] of Nod, on the east of Eden" (Gen. 4:16), Famine at the time of Joseph affected "all lands [erets]" (Gen. 41:54).

and there is no way an ark can hold all kinds of species of an entire world- there are too many. and there are animals that are native in other countries, not found in the area where Noah lived. for example, Americas, Australia, Germany, and so on. In their minds, these worlds do not exist. They haven't even know about them. and its all bout perception. they had no idea of a global planet at the time- there were many other "worlds" yet to be discovered.

scriptures has proven many times that God has come down to their level many times when dealing with them.

A christian friend said something about Continental drift when we talked about the Noah's flood story. I told him There's no way Continental drift changed that much in the last 4,000 years compared to what it is now. Trees cannot survive under water for 10 months either, especially in salt water. I told him that if it was global. all trees would die. I told him to take in account of plants and vegations, fruit and so on.. they cannot survive under water for 10 months either.  fresh water fishes couldn't survive in salt water either. They found old trees with 10,000 rings that had no evidence of a flood. He still insisted that if the scriptures say ALL, it means ALL flesh died. He then talked a bout how God is absolute and when he said it, he means it.

I can see that He is a very dedicated christian, a hardcore, and afraid to let go of the doctrines of men out of fear.  I know he means well. He is just afraid to trust something from what he "knew" all his life. I don't blame him. I blame the doctrines of men for messing good people like him.

So anyway- to the point with the 6 days creation part, Is Ray trying to say is that God did not create the earth  in 6 straight literal 12 hours/day sequence in the literal sense of one week?  But ray is trying to emphaize that  it took him about 6 days "worth" of work? But not saying which days he did which. He just worked one thing and let it come to fruition, then worked the next phase whenever the first one came to fruition and was ready for the next phase? I am trying to make sense of it.  Thanks so much

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Craig

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 03:21:40 PM »

Quote
He still insisted that if the scriptures say ALL, it means ALL flesh died. He then talked a bout how God is absolute and when he said it, he means it.

Ask this friend what he says about

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

and

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Depending on his answer you can decide whether to continue or shake the dust from your feet.

Craig
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thetruth

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 03:38:55 PM »

Hello,Craig

GOOD ANSWER MY FRIEND!

.
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thetruth

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 03:58:10 PM »

Hello, Revilonivek
Hope this helps some.I think we must always keep in mind that A DAY IS AS a thousand years to the Lord.A day in Scripture can mean thousand years in Scripture.Any way my friend I attached this so it may help some God bless.
  We’ll see the foolishness of such heretics as this, they have not a clue as to where they’re talking about. 

“In the beginning God had created the heavens and the earth.”  We know from science it’s at a starting point and spread out.  We know from the scriptures it started with God and spread out.  Not only spread out, but it’s still spreading.  Those words are still in the future tense.  God is spreading and science tells us that the universe is today, it is spreading.  Now we know how scientists figured that out, but how did the writers of the scriptures know that?  How could they look up at the starry skies at night and say looks to me like it’s spreading out, at millions of miles an hour?  There is no perception of movement at all, except as the earth twists.

So what God created was, everything that was necessary for what He was going to make.  He did not create the heavens and the earth in six days, as this person tells us it says in Exodus.  It does not. 

In Genesis it says, “in the beginning God created,“ the word is bara and it means to bring in something new, something really new.  In Exodus 20, it says “for in six days God made…”  First of all, even the translators knew not to put create.  They put “created” in Genesis 1:1, but not in Exodus 20:11.  Why didn’t they put, for in six days God created the heavens and the earth?  Because He didn’t do that in six days.  Then what did He do in six days?  He “made” the heavens and the earth.  What’s the difference?  All the difference in the world. 

In Genesis 1:1, He brought into existence everything that exists in the universe.  From day one through day six He formed all of that into everything as we now see it in the universe.  Two totally different operations.  Totally, totally different, they are not synonymous. 

The word bara (created) and the word asah (made) are two different words and they mean two different things.  In the beginning He created it all, it was all there.  But it wasn’t until certain things transpired before He began His work of asah.

We reach something very interesting.

Gen 2:3  And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested (just means He stopped) from all His work which God created and (to or for) made.

Now that is a horrible translation there.  The “created” and “made” are okay, but not the word “and.”  There is no word “and” in the Hebrew there.  …which God created that’s bara, and the word “made” is asah.  God blessed all which He created, it should be ‘to’ or ‘for.’  That word should always be translated to or for, not ‘and.’  All that God created to make or if you wanted to say that He created for making.  You would never learn that in a million years reading the King James Bible.

He did two things in Chapter one.  He created the universe and then ‘for’ six days, not for in six days. That word ‘in’ is not in Exodus 20:11, for in six days.  No, for six days, period.  Not for in six days.  For six days then He did something else.  What did He do?  He made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that in them is.

Exo 20:11  For six days the LORD made heaven and the earth and the sea and all that in them is…

Are you seeing it?  In a sense, in Genesis 1:1 He made all the raw materials of the heavens and the earth.  In the six creation periods He fashioned it - molded it - built it.  Verses 1 and 2 have absolutely nothing to do with that happens in verses 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and so on.
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Revilonivek

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 12:06:53 AM »

yes, i mean't to say 6 periods, 6 phases, 6 steps into completing the creations. is that what he did instead of 6 12 hours day creating the heavens and earth?
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Revilonivek

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 12:20:25 AM »

Hey Craig-


I told him that- His response was this.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3, 4 KJV)

Θέλω the Greek verb used as a participial phrase in this verse is not a state of being verb, but it means to desire, to wish. In today's English we would say:
"...in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
God desires our salvation so much that He made it possible (He did all the work); all we must do is trust Him.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 KJV)

There is only one Savior for all men. Jesus paid for everyone's sin debt, but it is sufficient and applicable only to those who accept Jesus payment by simply trusting Him.

Then proceeded to tell me that he feels that I am trying to discredit and twisting the truth.

I told him, I am only discrediting the doctrines of  men. Not what the scriptures actually says!


and Of course, he blocked me instead on Facebook as soon as I said that. Probably time to shake the dust off my feet.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 12:30:32 AM by Revilonivek »
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Foxx

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 05:47:42 AM »

yes, that does translate as a wish or desire but the question is does God get what he wishes or desires? Does God get his way? The answer is a resounding yes! God is in full control. And by the way this is a typical argument among those who believe in free will. They don't want to believe God could or would save everyone so they change his desire or wish into something as weak as man's wants and needs. People ask well what's the point if God could have just _____? Well the better question what is the point if he didn't do ____? People don't expect that...it makes them upset. Which isn't the goal mind you but people, when wrong, then begin attacking instead if using scriptures to substantiate their claims. I don't know how many times I've been told I'm taking things out of context or twisting doctrine and blah blah blah, not one person who said that to me ever has been able to use scripture to defend their logic. BUT when I use scripture then I'm the one who is twisting things, haha! But they don't see the flaw in their reasoning.

I recall when I discussed the free will thing once and the person claimed that I broke free will into its dictionary parts to limit it but I told him those aren't my definitions, this is the way the word is understood by people. Free will is defined that way because that is the manner in which it is used. It wouldn't be defined that way if that's not what it meant. That's the whole point of definitions! My point being that the concept of free will is incorrect based partly on its flawed definitions and concept. He then later uses that very definition to defend his argument. I asked him " so why is it ok to use the dictionary defintion to defend free will but its not ok to use the definition to prove its fallacy? He didn't have an answer. This has happened time and time again with other people. They don't want to believe God is in control and they want their free will to determine everything.

If God wants, wishes, desires, wills, then it WILL happen. This is the mistake among those who try to lower God to the level of man. And being told you are twisting the scriptures context essentially is nothing to be surprised of.

The thing of it is my friend is people like Ray and others are able to defend God's truths because they understand the fundamental basis of his word. If anything diverts from that basis then it must not be truth and this is how they counter all these things that people such as your friend says. Keep reading on the site and don't be discouraged. I started on this site in 2009 and I was so excited and touched by the warmth and brutal honesty and logic of Ray that I completely changed forever and I am thank ful for that. And I did the first thing that I think most of us have done, run out and tell the good news...but for mot the don't see it s such. It took me a while to understand this. To not be painted into a corner is difficult when one doesn't understand the basics fully. When I have gotten in to discussions more recently over the last 6 months or so its not as difficult because I know now that when someone says something that is typical of incorrect doctrine I remember HOW and WHY their interpretation or context or THEIR twisting of the scriptures flawed.

I guess I say all this because you need to be able to defend yourself on many of these matters. We can support and answer questions but fighting your own battles is something you need to do. It seems like Craig or Kat or someone tells people this each week. Honestly it would be great to be there by your side. I know what it feels like to know the truth but just unable to articulate it. But that may be God's way of not letting that individual you're talking to comprehend...at least for now.

I am truly sorry about your friend. They will come around Lord willing and if not its ok too. God is in control and always gets what he wants  ;)

BTW, good question regarding the 6 days thing though. Loved the responses by thetruth.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 06:10:58 AM by Foxx »
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Revilonivek

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 09:11:48 AM »

Hey Foxx,

I think he got mostly offended by the part where I told him that God will save all of mankind and whatever God desires and wills, HE will make it happen and not return it to void. It was the basis of that conversation. as soon as we got to that subject,  He right then accused me of twisting the truth and blocked me right then. we were talking about a bunch of things-one thing led to another-I think it was his last straw. I only answered a fool according to his folly- like about noah's flood, he insisted, ALL means ALL, then I bought up the part about God's salvation for ALL mankind, He insisted it doesnt apply to ALL.  He's an hardcore christian, so immersed in Christendom that He loves their god. It's not his fault. I think God is planting seeds in his heart to know where the narrow path is for whenever it's time.  It is not me.. I didn't even plan on talking to him about these things, but it just happened. He's a good man.  I just blame the damnable heresies for keeping people in the dark. what He just heard is the shaking of his foundation. It's either he takes down and rebuild or keep the house he built. We all have to go through that especially when it comes to our own spiritual growth. I am not even offended at all that he blocked me. I understand though, because I've been there once. It takes time.
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Foxx

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 12:13:48 PM »

Well don't blame those heresies. God uses those things to confound the wise. Imagine Jesus telling the religious know it alls of his day that they don't understand what they are taking about and furthermore they are snakes and hypocrites, haha! They wanted him dead big time. While its unlikely to be killed for such things now I have been told I'll be in hell next to Hitler and Stalin a time or two. I find it odd that a friend would block you, perhaps it is for the best. Christians can dish it out it but they can't take it huh? Anyway, do you want to still be friends with him?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 12:15:52 PM by Foxx »
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thetruth

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 02:17:56 PM »

Hello again Revilonivek!
Hope all is well my friend !Here is some more to help answer your question from Ray!





Creation

« on: June 14, 2007, 11:27:45 AM »



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "George"
Ray -
 
I know the Genesis Creation record is a big subject, but have you considered what the Lord Himself said in Exodus 20:11:
 
(KJV):
 
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
 
Thanks, Regards, George.
 

Dear George: Yes, of course I considered it. But the word "day--yom" has a multitude of uses representing different lengths of time:

"From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, chronicles, as (so) long as, season..." Dr. Strong.

In Gen. 2:4, the SAME SIX DAYS of Gen. 1 are called "THE [singular] day."  The whole judgment period of the whole world is called "A day" in Acts 17:31, etc.

In Heb. 4:4 we read of this "DAY" [singular] of rest on which God "did rest." "Again, He limited [Gk: designates A certain day [singular], saying to David, TODAY....TODAY if ye will ...For if Jesus had given them rest, then would He not afterward have spoken of ANOTHER DAY [singular] There remains therefore A rest to the people of God" (Heb. 4:4-10).  It this DAY OF REST that we are to enter into a "24-hour day" and then it's back to our old carnal ways again?  I think NOT
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Revilonivek

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 02:37:44 PM »

Foxx, well actually, its a frriend of a friend kind of thing. He tried to invite over to his church and said its nothing like it anywhere and talked about hoe special it was and never expect to leave the church without experiencing the spirit. Its hoe the conversations got started and went from there. A week long worth of conversations, guess he had enough of it. Its OK. One at a time. Its a lot already.
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cjwood

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 03:48:56 AM »


...about noah's flood, he insisted, ALL means ALL, then I bought up the part about God's salvation for ALL mankind, He insisted it doesnt apply to ALL. 

this wishy-washy argument by your friend isn't a surprise.  many refuse to not believe that their being a 'christian' makes them somehow safe, and better than.  better than all the others who don't believe as they do, in their god.  their god who will hold them up on a pedestal whilst he destroys forever and ever in a literal fire, with lots of pain, all the others.  but, your other statement i've noted below, explains the rest of the story. 

...I just blame the damnable heresies for keeping people in the dark.

it is Father God who is keeping these people in the dark.  they have not been given the spiritual eyes to see the Light, Jesus Christ, the True Savior of ALL mankind.  the heresies of religion, the manmade doctrines, hold them.  one day they will know the Truth.

in the meantime, looks like you've lost a friend for now.  and you possibly are being viewed as a heretic by him.  but in that, you can rejoice.   :)  what better compliment than being viewed as a heretic for your faith in the Truths of the Scriptures.

stand strong in that faith.

claudia




« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 07:14:59 PM by cjwood »
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indianabob

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 09:29:46 PM »

Hi Rev...
I like your presentation and I don't mean to debate any of it, but I would like to mention that some of your reasoning could be in question.
Regarding what the Ark could hold I don't think we could prove that every species had to be on it because variations within species can develop even if God did not necessarily work a miracle after the ark landed.
2. We don't know whether the author of Genesis knew of a global earth. To assume that, is not good scholarship.
3. Regarding the expanse of the oceans there didn't have to be a rapid drift between today's continents when a fairly rapid subsidence of several thousand feet would do just as well as in the fountains of the great deep heaved up. Nothing such as that is too hard for God.
4. Why would trees need to survive a year under water? They had plenty of time to sprout from seed after the flood.
5. Fresh water animals do survive in salt water even today.
6. What evidence is there that the oceans were always as salty as we find them today?
7. Tree rings are not necessarily annual. Other natural event can affect growth rings.

I did appreciate your comments and just wanted to caution the use of certain ideas that we cannot prove beyond any reasonable doubt. We don't want to appear to other readers of the forum to have too dogmatic a view of the unknown.

Kindly, Bob






I just read Ray's audio transcript of the mobile conference 2008. I want to make sure I understand about the genesis part of 6 days creation.

I knew there was something wrong with the Genesis story because it doesn't quite add up according to Christendom. It just didn't make sense. 

I was aware of bad usage of translational words when it comes to English from different languages because of Noah's flood story.

For example, about Noah's flood, Christians take the word "earth" and assume it means ALL Land OF THE WHOLE WORLD. But really the Hebrew word used for "earth" in English is erets. Which should be translated to "land" not "earth". I looked up the scriptures with the word Erets, it is used to refer to a locality-it shows that "erets" was used to show specific lands: "The whole land [erets] of Havilah (Gen. 2:11)," “whole land [erets] of Ethiopia” (Gen. 2:13), "the land [erets] of Nod, on the east of Eden" (Gen. 4:16), Famine at the time of Joseph affected "all lands [erets]" (Gen. 41:54).

and there is no way an ark can hold all kinds of species of an entire world- there are too many. and there are animals that are native in other countries, not found in the area where Noah lived. for example, Americas, Australia, Germany, and so on. In their minds, these worlds do not exist. They haven't even know about them. and its all bout perception. they had no idea of a global planet at the time- there were many other "worlds" yet to be discovered.

scriptures has proven many times that God has come down to their level many times when dealing with them.

A christian friend said something about Continental drift when we talked about the Noah's flood story. I told him There's no way Continental drift changed that much in the last 4,000 years compared to what it is now. Trees cannot survive under water for 10 months either, especially in salt water. I told him that if it was global. all trees would die. I told him to take in account of plants and vegations, fruit and so on.. they cannot survive under water for 10 months either.  fresh water fishes couldn't survive in salt water either. They found old trees with 10,000 rings that had no evidence of a flood. He still insisted that if the scriptures say ALL, it means ALL flesh died. He then talked a bout how God is absolute and when he said it, he means it.

I can see that He is a very dedicated christian, a hardcore, and afraid to let go of the doctrines of men out of fear.  I know he means well. He is just afraid to trust something from what he "knew" all his life. I don't blame him. I blame the doctrines of men for messing good people like him.

So anyway- to the point with the 6 days creation part, Is Ray trying to say is that God did not create the earth  in 6 straight literal 12 hours/day sequence in the literal sense of one week?  But ray is trying to emphaize that  it took him about 6 days "worth" of work? But not saying which days he did which. He just worked one thing and let it come to fruition, then worked the next phase whenever the first one came to fruition and was ready for the next phase? I am trying to make sense of it.  Thanks so much
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Revilonivek

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2012, 10:37:03 AM »

Hey Indianabob,


Try searching the word eret, h776 and adamah h127 on your e-sword, and see what it says. You'll find plenty of examples. You are right, we can't be sure 100% if they knew of  global planet or not. I doubt it though, from looking at the scriptures but its possible. I think God got down to their level when dealing with them. You can see that in the scriptures as well. The bible was not written to us personally, but to them. It is understandable to them.  We need to get out of our modern mindset and read it as they would have understood it.

Anyway- here's a few.

I can pick a few examples, Erets means  land or specific land, ground, country or countries, hills, mountains, etc. alot of times it refers to land. adamah often means ground/land/face of the earth etc. If you look, you'll see they're talking about a particular land or lands known to them. Few examples below.

Lam 4:12  The kingsH4428 of the earth,H776 and allH3605 the inhabitantsH3427 of the world,H8398 would notH3808 have believedH539 thatH3588 the adversaryH6862 and the enemyH341 should have enteredH935 into the gatesH8179 of Jerusalem.H3389 

Jer 46:8  EgyptH4714 riseth upH5927 like a flood,H2975 and his watersH4325 are movedH1607 like the rivers;H5104 and he saith,H559 I will go up,H5927 and will coverH3680 the earth;H776 I will destroyH6 the cityH5892 and the inhabitantsH3427 thereof.

We know that after Joshua had led the Israelites into the Promised Land, we read: "So Joshua took the whole land [erets]...and the land [erets] rested from war" (Joshua 11:23). No one would think of reading "earth" into this passage! We know that the conquest of Canaan didn't include America, China, and Australia. So, I think the "land" in a limited area is more consistent than the word "earth” [erets]:

Gen. 19:31 - God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's daughters said "there's not a man in the earth to come in unto us.” We know that not every man in the world was killed... only those in the area of the destruction.

Exodus 9:33 - "The rain was not poured upon the earth." Of course we understand it is just speaking about a certain area in Egypt.

2 Chronicles 36:23 - Cyrus' empire is said to have encompassed "all the kingdoms of the earth ." But there were kingdoms in the Far East which were surely not included.

Ezra 1:2 - Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth ; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

Jer. 34:1 - "All the kingdoms of the earth of his dominion, and all the peoples, fought against Jerusalem." There the phrase "of the earth" is limited to "his dominion," i.e., the dominion of Nebuchadnezzar.

Hab. 1:6 - For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land , to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs.

Here is the list of example with “the face of the earth/land/ground ” with Hebrew words, erets or adamah during Noah’s days:

Gen. 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground [adamah] which the LORD hath cursed.

Gen. 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth [adamah], and daughters were born unto them,

Gen. 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth[adamah]; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen. 7:3 - Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of the earth [erets].

Gen. 7:4 - For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth [erets] forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off face of the earth [adamah].

Gen. 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground[adamah], both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth [erets]: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen. 8:9 - But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters [were] on the face of the whole earth [erets]: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Gen. 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth [erets]: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked , and, behold, the face of the ground [adamah] was dry.

Gen. 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground [adamah] any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done.

You see, it seems that the translators cannot make up with their mind with “earth”, “land”, and “ground.” You can compare other Bible translations like KJV, NASB, NIV, etc. Good thing that we can check some Hebrew words.

But remember we let the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures about "the face of the earth/land/ground" in other passages:

Gen. 2:6 - But there went up a mist from the earth [erets], and watered the whole face of the ground [adamah].

Gen. 4:14 - Behold, thou hast driven me [Cain] out this day from the face of the earth [adamah]; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth [erets]; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Gen. 11:8 - So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth [erets]: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth [erets].

Gen. 41:56 - And the famine was over all the face of the earth [erets]: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.

There is no evidence of a global famine at that time... the Bible states "all countries (erets) came to Egypt" to buy corn (Genesis 41:57). Surely it means the countries close to Egypt... Certainly not "all" countries -- unless we assume the Australians or the American Indians... were in Egypt buying corn.

If we take "erets" to mean the entire planet, then we also have to interpret that OTHER planets came to Egypt to buy corn. You see what i mean?

Exodus 10:5, 15 - We read about a plague of locusts that "covered the face of the whole earth [erets]." It should be pretty evident that this locust plague covered only a limited LAND of Egypt... it is the same wording in both places. Yet we never assume these locusts covered the entire globe.

Num. 11:31 - And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth [erets].

After the Israelites were delivered from Egypt and settled in Canaan, the scripture says they "covered the face of the earth" (erets, Numbers 22:5,11) Not even fundamentalists would say that Israelites covered every square foot of the planet...This is simply a way of stating that they occupied the land in which they were dwelling.

1 Sam. 20:15 - But also thou shalt not cut off thy kindness from my house for ever: no, not when the LORD hath cut off the enemies of David everyone from the face of the earth [adamah].

2 Sam. 18:8 - For the battle was there scattered over the face of all the country [erets]: and the wood devoured more people that day than the sword devoured.

Isa. 23:17 - And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth [adamah].

Jer. 25:26 - And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth [adamah]: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

Here are a few examples in the New Testament:

Acts 11:28 - Speaks of a similar famine throughout the entire world, yet it is not likely it really meant over the whole globe including the New World.

Luke 2:1 - Refers to a decree which went out to tax "the whole world." But this was only refers to Romans who controlled the land of Judea.

Now, Here's a stumbling block.... What about the Nephilim in Genesis 6:4?  Notice the words, "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.” (NASB) Notice it says “and also afterward” , Does that mean they existed after the flood?

And  during Moses’ time in Numbers 13:33: "There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." (NASB) This is the same Hebrew word in Strong’s #5303. Why they weren't destroyed during the flood? This is a stumbling block for those who hold the global flood.

You said, Regarding what the Ark could hold I don't think we could prove that every species had to be on it because variations within species can develop even if God did not necessarily work a miracle after the ark landed.

That one is possible, but That points to evolution, which Christians doesn't believe and will deny anytime.

 
2. We don't know whether the author of Genesis knew of a global earth. To assume that, is not good scholarship.

Review the word erets and adamah, you'll see why I wasn't sure if they understood the planet to be global at the time. They seem to talk or refer to lands KNOWN to them. You can see more on e-sword.

You remember Alexander the Great- he was having wars, trying to conquer lands, he barely discovered India before he died, it was unknown land to him at the time.  But before that, he conquered lands known to him.  He was an explorer wanted to conquer the whole world so he pressed on. That was much later, way later than Noah's time. India didn't exist in their minds in Noah's time.


3. Regarding the expanse of the oceans there didn't have to be a rapid drift between today's continents when a fairly rapid subsidence of several thousand feet would do just as well as in the fountains of the great deep heaved up. Nothing such as that is too hard for God.

As for speed of "Continental drift". There is no way it has moved that much in 4,000 years. People only found about new worlds not too long ago.  and Europeans refer to new lands "new Worlds" not necessarily new planets. Just new land and they are quite far away from their "known" worlds.

as for your other questions- They all point to evolution-most salt water fishes can't live in fresh water,most fresh water fishes can't live in salt water either, but granted, there are a very few species that are tolerant and can adapt.. then again that point to evolution and if you suggest that  to a christian, they willl deny that.

Most trees cannot survive fully submerged in salt water for 10 months. For most trees, they will die.  but there's a few trees that may live underwater but fresh water is better for them. and maybe salt water if halfway submerged for weeks at a time, like mangroves, cypresses, etc. But not fully submerged for 10 months. there's no way. your question points to evolution again, can you really believe it can sprout to many thousands and maybe more different species in 4,000  years when tree seeds are scarce? especially all over the world? globally? would it work that quickly? Think of Hurricane Katrina in 2005? Anyone who is from America will probably remember the devastation of hurricane Katrina. My husband went to help with the clean up. Anyway, salt water went overland and it stayed flooded for weeks. Trees that was affected- Many of them died, They didn't even have to be fully submerged to die. They still haven't grown back yet.

as for the tree rings. You are probably right but the point is, they found no evidence of a flood in their rings else where.

I may be wrong and the whole world was submerged but scriptures say different. You have to keep in mind that there are other mountains taller than mountain Ararat as well.



Denise





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Rene

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 11:48:36 AM »


Try searching the word eret, h776 and adamah h127 on your e-sword, and see what it says. You'll find plenty of examples. You are right, we can't be sure 100% if they knew of  global planet or not. I doubt it though, from looking at the scriptures but its possible. I think God got down to their level when dealing with them. You can see that in the scriptures as well. The bible was not written to us personally, but to them. It is understandable to them.  We need to get out of our modern mindset and read it as they would have understood it.


Denise,

The scriptures were written for all of God's elect throughout each generation.  Here are two scriptures to support this truth.

René

Romans 15:4 - For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. (NAS)

2 Timothy 3:16-17 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (KJV)
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indianabob

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 03:16:32 PM »

Hi again Denise (Revilonivek)

I love to discuss these thoughts and hope that you will love my remarks just as much.

I'm not a Darwinian evolutionist, but I believe that species can adapt to their environment and can demonstrate variations within the species.
On the ARK there could have been one pair of dogs that could have developed variations in coloration, size, habits etc. This idea does not require changes in the genetics of the species. There exists in nature a genetic device labeled "Cryptic Genes" which only means that the species had the ability to adapt from the point of their creation by having the environment turn on already existing specific genes as needed. Polar bears are just white colored brown bears. They can be induced to interbreed in captivity although it is evident that part of the adaptation included a gene change or switch that would limit interbreeding. The whiter their fur the better chance the cubs had to survive the attack of predator wolves and to then reproduce offspring that had more white fur genes. This variation is accomplished by cattle breeders and sheep breeders without any scientific understanding and takes several generations of only three to five years.
For example fresh water fishes could adapt to a gradually increasing salt concentration in the oceans that "may have been" predominantly fresh water until the run off of streams and rivers on land led to increasing the mineral content. Salmon are an interesting study in this regard.
For example the Dead Sea near Jerusalem became salty because there was no outlet for the incoming fresh water other than evaporation. There is no evidence that the Dead Sea was always salty.

Of course there is the water that came up out of the ground when the skies rained for 40 days. The water from the "great deep" may have already been mineralized to some extent just as pumped well water in a virgin territory is today.

As far as I know at this time, tree rings on the oldest examples we have to test are from the Sequoias in California which were in 1955 estimated to be 4000+ years old. Doesn't that fit with the flood event?
Regarding seeds being distributed all over the earth in time to provide trees for the descendants of Noah to find, we have bird dropings from birds that range from Northern Europe all the way to South Africa in an annual migration. We have winds that lift and distribute leaves and seed pods for hundreds of miles every year. We have insects that survive under ground for years and come up with the change of seasons. There would be no real reason to doubt that new forrests could not be created in one century over the entire expanse of the sphere of the Earth.

How would we find evidence of a flood in the tree rings? If a tree died during the flood and was uprooted it would just remain as it had been when it ceased to grow and when we found the tree in an excavation centuries later it would be as it had been unless it was mineralized by laying in open water.

Regarding Exodus 10:5 the discussion is not about a flood of the earth it is about the locust covering the land where the people stood looking down. It is about the locusts being so thick that the earth or dirt could no longer be seen for the number of or the thickness of the locusts.

"and they shall cover the face of the earth, that one shall not be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field:"

So for now that is enough to comment upon.
I'm just saying that we should be cautious when we share our ideas and perhaps reference the English translations of Bible verses that are not necessarily valid when taken out of context.
I do appreciate your bringing up the topic it is interesting and fun to share our ideas on the forum and I stand ready to correct any mis-statement that I may have written on this topic.
Kindly offered, Indianabob
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musicman

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 10:33:49 AM »

So if it took God six days to create the earth, what pray tell was He doing at night?  Sleeping?
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indianabob

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 02:39:43 PM »

Hi Musicman,
Apparently when God is working He keeps the earth rotating so that he gets things done in spite of the darkness on the back side. It's always light where God is.

Bob
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Revilonivek

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Re: Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 07:35:09 PM »

Hey Indianabob-

 :) I mentioned earlier in the above post, there's no way to be 100 percent sure. I mean, Let's rewind to 4,000 years. You had no clue to a global world- Other races had no clue of a global world either. no computer, no fancy telescope, no camera, no telephone,. Not everyone was educated about Math or science. Women had no rights. everyone can be easily stoned to death if not careful back then. beliefs about religion was touchy. And you only know of lands you know that existed. It may seem like all to Noah back then.. But later, as more and more lands were discovered after Noah's time. The point is. it may seem like the entire world to him, like it did many times to other people in the scriptures but turned out to be limited areas that was known at the time in other places in scriptures that seem like the entire world to them. Make sense?

The flood story could be a dealing between God and his conveant people, because it is clear that the nephilim survived the flood. Numbers 13:33.

You mentioned about the locust. They wrote that locust was all over the earth, but it was clear that it was referring to a limited area or an entire known area. I was simply pointing out that the words they use to refer to earth, face of the earth, the world, etc doesn't always mean the whole global planet.

About the trees- Google up the tree in Sweden, its found to be around 10,000 years old. It beats the one in California, The one in California was close to 5,000 years. Which means it existed before Noah's flood.

But Maybe this Noah's flood story and everything they did  in old testament is one of the elementary teachings that we need to learn from, grow and put away their  carnal ways and go on to mature things like searching  and adopting the Christ mind. These things are one of the former things. Learn from their mistakes and go on grander things like unconditional love.
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