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Ray's mobile conference 2008 about Genesis
Revilonivek:
Foxx, well actually, its a frriend of a friend kind of thing. He tried to invite over to his church and said its nothing like it anywhere and talked about hoe special it was and never expect to leave the church without experiencing the spirit. Its hoe the conversations got started and went from there. A week long worth of conversations, guess he had enough of it. Its OK. One at a time. Its a lot already.
cjwood:
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on January 31, 2012, 06:11:48 AM ---
...about noah's flood, he insisted, ALL means ALL, then I bought up the part about God's salvation for ALL mankind, He insisted it doesnt apply to ALL.
this wishy-washy argument by your friend isn't a surprise. many refuse to not believe that their being a 'christian' makes them somehow safe, and better than. better than all the others who don't believe as they do, in their god. their god who will hold them up on a pedestal whilst he destroys forever and ever in a literal fire, with lots of pain, all the others. but, your other statement i've noted below, explains the rest of the story.
...I just blame the damnable heresies for keeping people in the dark.
it is Father God who is keeping these people in the dark. they have not been given the spiritual eyes to see the Light, Jesus Christ, the True Savior of ALL mankind. the heresies of religion, the manmade doctrines, hold them. one day they will know the Truth.
in the meantime, looks like you've lost a friend for now. and you possibly are being viewed as a heretic by him. but in that, you can rejoice. :) what better compliment than being viewed as a heretic for your faith in the Truths of the Scriptures.
stand strong in that faith.
claudia
--- End quote ---
indianabob:
Hi Rev...
I like your presentation and I don't mean to debate any of it, but I would like to mention that some of your reasoning could be in question.
Regarding what the Ark could hold I don't think we could prove that every species had to be on it because variations within species can develop even if God did not necessarily work a miracle after the ark landed.
2. We don't know whether the author of Genesis knew of a global earth. To assume that, is not good scholarship.
3. Regarding the expanse of the oceans there didn't have to be a rapid drift between today's continents when a fairly rapid subsidence of several thousand feet would do just as well as in the fountains of the great deep heaved up. Nothing such as that is too hard for God.
4. Why would trees need to survive a year under water? They had plenty of time to sprout from seed after the flood.
5. Fresh water animals do survive in salt water even today.
6. What evidence is there that the oceans were always as salty as we find them today?
7. Tree rings are not necessarily annual. Other natural event can affect growth rings.
I did appreciate your comments and just wanted to caution the use of certain ideas that we cannot prove beyond any reasonable doubt. We don't want to appear to other readers of the forum to have too dogmatic a view of the unknown.
Kindly, Bob
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on January 30, 2012, 11:55:12 AM ---I just read Ray's audio transcript of the mobile conference 2008. I want to make sure I understand about the genesis part of 6 days creation.
I knew there was something wrong with the Genesis story because it doesn't quite add up according to Christendom. It just didn't make sense.
I was aware of bad usage of translational words when it comes to English from different languages because of Noah's flood story.
For example, about Noah's flood, Christians take the word "earth" and assume it means ALL Land OF THE WHOLE WORLD. But really the Hebrew word used for "earth" in English is erets. Which should be translated to "land" not "earth". I looked up the scriptures with the word Erets, it is used to refer to a locality-it shows that "erets" was used to show specific lands: "The whole land [erets] of Havilah (Gen. 2:11)," “whole land [erets] of Ethiopia” (Gen. 2:13), "the land [erets] of Nod, on the east of Eden" (Gen. 4:16), Famine at the time of Joseph affected "all lands [erets]" (Gen. 41:54).
and there is no way an ark can hold all kinds of species of an entire world- there are too many. and there are animals that are native in other countries, not found in the area where Noah lived. for example, Americas, Australia, Germany, and so on. In their minds, these worlds do not exist. They haven't even know about them. and its all bout perception. they had no idea of a global planet at the time- there were many other "worlds" yet to be discovered.
scriptures has proven many times that God has come down to their level many times when dealing with them.
A christian friend said something about Continental drift when we talked about the Noah's flood story. I told him There's no way Continental drift changed that much in the last 4,000 years compared to what it is now. Trees cannot survive under water for 10 months either, especially in salt water. I told him that if it was global. all trees would die. I told him to take in account of plants and vegations, fruit and so on.. they cannot survive under water for 10 months either. fresh water fishes couldn't survive in salt water either. They found old trees with 10,000 rings that had no evidence of a flood. He still insisted that if the scriptures say ALL, it means ALL flesh died. He then talked a bout how God is absolute and when he said it, he means it.
I can see that He is a very dedicated christian, a hardcore, and afraid to let go of the doctrines of men out of fear. I know he means well. He is just afraid to trust something from what he "knew" all his life. I don't blame him. I blame the doctrines of men for messing good people like him.
So anyway- to the point with the 6 days creation part, Is Ray trying to say is that God did not create the earth in 6 straight literal 12 hours/day sequence in the literal sense of one week? But ray is trying to emphaize that it took him about 6 days "worth" of work? But not saying which days he did which. He just worked one thing and let it come to fruition, then worked the next phase whenever the first one came to fruition and was ready for the next phase? I am trying to make sense of it. Thanks so much
--- End quote ---
Revilonivek:
Hey Indianabob,
Try searching the word eret, h776 and adamah h127 on your e-sword, and see what it says. You'll find plenty of examples. You are right, we can't be sure 100% if they knew of global planet or not. I doubt it though, from looking at the scriptures but its possible. I think God got down to their level when dealing with them. You can see that in the scriptures as well. The bible was not written to us personally, but to them. It is understandable to them. We need to get out of our modern mindset and read it as they would have understood it.
Anyway- here's a few.
I can pick a few examples, Erets means land or specific land, ground, country or countries, hills, mountains, etc. alot of times it refers to land. adamah often means ground/land/face of the earth etc. If you look, you'll see they're talking about a particular land or lands known to them. Few examples below.
Lam 4:12 The kingsH4428 of the earth,H776 and allH3605 the inhabitantsH3427 of the world,H8398 would notH3808 have believedH539 thatH3588 the adversaryH6862 and the enemyH341 should have enteredH935 into the gatesH8179 of Jerusalem.H3389
Jer 46:8 EgyptH4714 riseth upH5927 like a flood,H2975 and his watersH4325 are movedH1607 like the rivers;H5104 and he saith,H559 I will go up,H5927 and will coverH3680 the earth;H776 I will destroyH6 the cityH5892 and the inhabitantsH3427 thereof.
We know that after Joshua had led the Israelites into the Promised Land, we read: "So Joshua took the whole land [erets]...and the land [erets] rested from war" (Joshua 11:23). No one would think of reading "earth" into this passage! We know that the conquest of Canaan didn't include America, China, and Australia. So, I think the "land" in a limited area is more consistent than the word "earth” [erets]:
Gen. 19:31 - God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's daughters said "there's not a man in the earth to come in unto us.” We know that not every man in the world was killed... only those in the area of the destruction.
Exodus 9:33 - "The rain was not poured upon the earth." Of course we understand it is just speaking about a certain area in Egypt.
2 Chronicles 36:23 - Cyrus' empire is said to have encompassed "all the kingdoms of the earth ." But there were kingdoms in the Far East which were surely not included.
Ezra 1:2 - Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth ; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Jer. 34:1 - "All the kingdoms of the earth of his dominion, and all the peoples, fought against Jerusalem." There the phrase "of the earth" is limited to "his dominion," i.e., the dominion of Nebuchadnezzar.
Hab. 1:6 - For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land , to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs.
Here is the list of example with “the face of the earth/land/ground ” with Hebrew words, erets or adamah during Noah’s days:
Gen. 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground [adamah] which the LORD hath cursed.
Gen. 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth [adamah], and daughters were born unto them,
Gen. 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth[adamah]; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen. 7:3 - Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of the earth [erets].
Gen. 7:4 - For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth [erets] forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off face of the earth [adamah].
Gen. 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground[adamah], both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth [erets]: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Gen. 8:9 - But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters [were] on the face of the whole earth [erets]: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
Gen. 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth [erets]: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked , and, behold, the face of the ground [adamah] was dry.
Gen. 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground [adamah] any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done.
You see, it seems that the translators cannot make up with their mind with “earth”, “land”, and “ground.” You can compare other Bible translations like KJV, NASB, NIV, etc. Good thing that we can check some Hebrew words.
But remember we let the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures about "the face of the earth/land/ground" in other passages:
Gen. 2:6 - But there went up a mist from the earth [erets], and watered the whole face of the ground [adamah].
Gen. 4:14 - Behold, thou hast driven me [Cain] out this day from the face of the earth [adamah]; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth [erets]; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen. 11:8 - So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth [erets]: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth [erets].
Gen. 41:56 - And the famine was over all the face of the earth [erets]: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.
There is no evidence of a global famine at that time... the Bible states "all countries (erets) came to Egypt" to buy corn (Genesis 41:57). Surely it means the countries close to Egypt... Certainly not "all" countries -- unless we assume the Australians or the American Indians... were in Egypt buying corn.
If we take "erets" to mean the entire planet, then we also have to interpret that OTHER planets came to Egypt to buy corn. You see what i mean?
Exodus 10:5, 15 - We read about a plague of locusts that "covered the face of the whole earth [erets]." It should be pretty evident that this locust plague covered only a limited LAND of Egypt... it is the same wording in both places. Yet we never assume these locusts covered the entire globe.
Num. 11:31 - And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth [erets].
After the Israelites were delivered from Egypt and settled in Canaan, the scripture says they "covered the face of the earth" (erets, Numbers 22:5,11) Not even fundamentalists would say that Israelites covered every square foot of the planet...This is simply a way of stating that they occupied the land in which they were dwelling.
1 Sam. 20:15 - But also thou shalt not cut off thy kindness from my house for ever: no, not when the LORD hath cut off the enemies of David everyone from the face of the earth [adamah].
2 Sam. 18:8 - For the battle was there scattered over the face of all the country [erets]: and the wood devoured more people that day than the sword devoured.
Isa. 23:17 - And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth [adamah].
Jer. 25:26 - And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth [adamah]: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
Here are a few examples in the New Testament:
Acts 11:28 - Speaks of a similar famine throughout the entire world, yet it is not likely it really meant over the whole globe including the New World.
Luke 2:1 - Refers to a decree which went out to tax "the whole world." But this was only refers to Romans who controlled the land of Judea.
Now, Here's a stumbling block.... What about the Nephilim in Genesis 6:4? Notice the words, "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.” (NASB) Notice it says “and also afterward” , Does that mean they existed after the flood?
And during Moses’ time in Numbers 13:33: "There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." (NASB) This is the same Hebrew word in Strong’s #5303. Why they weren't destroyed during the flood? This is a stumbling block for those who hold the global flood.
You said, Regarding what the Ark could hold I don't think we could prove that every species had to be on it because variations within species can develop even if God did not necessarily work a miracle after the ark landed.
That one is possible, but That points to evolution, which Christians doesn't believe and will deny anytime.
2. We don't know whether the author of Genesis knew of a global earth. To assume that, is not good scholarship.
Review the word erets and adamah, you'll see why I wasn't sure if they understood the planet to be global at the time. They seem to talk or refer to lands KNOWN to them. You can see more on e-sword.
You remember Alexander the Great- he was having wars, trying to conquer lands, he barely discovered India before he died, it was unknown land to him at the time. But before that, he conquered lands known to him. He was an explorer wanted to conquer the whole world so he pressed on. That was much later, way later than Noah's time. India didn't exist in their minds in Noah's time.
3. Regarding the expanse of the oceans there didn't have to be a rapid drift between today's continents when a fairly rapid subsidence of several thousand feet would do just as well as in the fountains of the great deep heaved up. Nothing such as that is too hard for God.
As for speed of "Continental drift". There is no way it has moved that much in 4,000 years. People only found about new worlds not too long ago. and Europeans refer to new lands "new Worlds" not necessarily new planets. Just new land and they are quite far away from their "known" worlds.
as for your other questions- They all point to evolution-most salt water fishes can't live in fresh water,most fresh water fishes can't live in salt water either, but granted, there are a very few species that are tolerant and can adapt.. then again that point to evolution and if you suggest that to a christian, they willl deny that.
Most trees cannot survive fully submerged in salt water for 10 months. For most trees, they will die. but there's a few trees that may live underwater but fresh water is better for them. and maybe salt water if halfway submerged for weeks at a time, like mangroves, cypresses, etc. But not fully submerged for 10 months. there's no way. your question points to evolution again, can you really believe it can sprout to many thousands and maybe more different species in 4,000 years when tree seeds are scarce? especially all over the world? globally? would it work that quickly? Think of Hurricane Katrina in 2005? Anyone who is from America will probably remember the devastation of hurricane Katrina. My husband went to help with the clean up. Anyway, salt water went overland and it stayed flooded for weeks. Trees that was affected- Many of them died, They didn't even have to be fully submerged to die. They still haven't grown back yet.
as for the tree rings. You are probably right but the point is, they found no evidence of a flood in their rings else where.
I may be wrong and the whole world was submerged but scriptures say different. You have to keep in mind that there are other mountains taller than mountain Ararat as well.
Denise
Rene:
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on February 04, 2012, 07:37:03 AM ---
Try searching the word eret, h776 and adamah h127 on your e-sword, and see what it says. You'll find plenty of examples. You are right, we can't be sure 100% if they knew of global planet or not. I doubt it though, from looking at the scriptures but its possible. I think God got down to their level when dealing with them. You can see that in the scriptures as well. The bible was not written to us personally, but to them. It is understandable to them. We need to get out of our modern mindset and read it as they would have understood it.
--- End quote ---
Denise,
The scriptures were written for all of God's elect throughout each generation. Here are two scriptures to support this truth.
René
Romans 15:4 - For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. (NAS)
2 Timothy 3:16-17 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (KJV)
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