Categories of hell beliefs/B-T'ers/U-S'ers

[Duane]

A "categorical thought"

We have the:
B-T'ers--people who MOSTLY agree with the writings of L. Ray Smith
U-S'ers--people who believe Jesus ACTUALLY IS "the Savior of the World" as it is TWICE proclaimed as a "title" in the Bible, and eluded to hundreds of times.

Then there's the: "hell'ers"
1st degree "Hell'er" (Fundamentalist) Believes: that ONLY those who believe and accept of "their own 'free will'" Jesus as their Savior and believe in the atoning of the BLOOD of Jesus for the remission of their sins--go to heaven IMMEDIATELY upon death... The "unbeliever/non-repentant goes DIRECTLY to HELL upon death and remains for ETERNITY upon ETERNITY with no repentance accepted and no future except to scream, wail and gnash their teeth.

2nd degree "hell-er" (pentecostal's) believe as ABOVE-- only that you are NEVER QUITE SURE of SALVATION because you can "lose it" through a sin committed or life-style. Therefore you are ALWAYS in danger of "HELL_FIRE" so you need to get "re-saved" each week in church/ or daily--depending on which sin you feel is critical enough to "erase your name from "the Book of Life". The threat of HELL FIRE is a central part in "guaranteeing" church attendance every week.

3rd degree "hell-er" believes that HELL is an option but first you can AVOID HELL by going to PURGATORY and doing penance by PRAYING and 'WORKING OFF YOUR SINS" by repeating the Lord's Prayer, prayer beads, having people pray and /or PAY priests to pray to God in YOUR BEHALF for your release into heaven. (SAINTS are exempt because they proved their "saint status" through self-sacrifice, community service, or perhaps FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS!

4th degree "hell-er" believes you can avoid HELL by: being an ACTIVE MEMBER of a particular CHURCH, being killed under the "Age of Accountability" (not mentioned/taught in the Bible) or "being sprinkled" as a baby.
Then you take your FIRST COMMUNION and "you're in like Flynn".

5th degree "hell-er" believes that ANYONE THAT DOESN'T BELIEVE AS THEY DO is
going to HELL for eternity upon eternity!

6th degree "hell-er" is NOT a "hell-er" at all because of the belief of reincarnation into another form of life--the QUALITY of NEW embodiment depends on the "goodness of life lived" on earth.

These are all the categories/variations of "hell-ers" I can think of.

[Samson]

A "categorical thought"

We have the:
B-T'ers--people who MOSTLY agree with the writings of L. Ray Smith
U-S'ers--people who believe Jesus ACTUALLY IS "the Savior of the World" as it is TWICE proclaimed as a "title" in the Bible, and eluded to hundreds of times.

Then there's the: "hell'ers"
1st degree "Hell'er" (Fundamentalist) Believes: that ONLY those who believe and accept of "their own 'free will'" Jesus as their Savior and believe in the atoning of the BLOOD of Jesus for the remission of their sins--go to heaven IMMEDIATELY upon death... The "unbeliever/non-repentant goes DIRECTLY to HELL upon death and remains for ETERNITY upon ETERNITY with no repentance accepted and no future except to scream, wail and gnash their teeth.

2nd degree "hell-er" (pentecostal's) believe as ABOVE-- only that you are NEVER QUITE SURE of SALVATION because you can "lose it" through a sin committed or life-style. Therefore you are ALWAYS in danger of "HELL_FIRE" so you need to get "re-saved" each week in church/ or daily--depending on which sin you feel is critical enough to "erase your name from "the Book of Life". The threat of HELL FIRE is a central part in "guaranteeing" church attendance every week.

3rd degree "hell-er" believes that HELL is an option but first you can AVOID HELL by going to PURGATORY and doing penance by PRAYING and 'WORKING OFF YOUR SINS" by repeating the Lord's Prayer, prayer beads, having people pray and /or PAY priests to pray to God in YOUR BEHALF for your release into heaven. (SAINTS are exempt because they proved their "saint status" through self-sacrifice, community service, or perhaps FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS!

4th degree "hell-er" believes you can avoid HELL by: being an ACTIVE MEMBER of a particular CHURCH, being killed under the "Age of Accountability" (not mentioned/taught in the Bible) or "being sprinkled" as a baby.
Then you take your FIRST COMMUNION and "you're in like Flynn".

5th degree "hell-er" believes that ANYONE THAT DOESN'T BELIEVE AS THEY DO is
going to HELL for eternity upon eternity!

6th degree "hell-er" is NOT a "hell-er" at all because of the belief of reincarnation into another form of life--the QUALITY of NEW embodiment depends on the "goodness of life lived" on earth.

These are all the categories/variations of "hell-ers" I can think of.

Hi Duane,

Your above Post substantiates and highlights another major inconsistency of the Eternal Punishment Doctrine, that being: 1) What exactly does an individual do to avoid ending up there, in other words, Whats the exact formula one needs to follow to avoid ending up there. 2) What  exactly does the Punishment consist of, Examples below.

1) Is the Punishment a literally physical fire where the pain is felt by literal flesh burning, like putting your hand over the fire from your gas stove, but worse.

2) Is the Punishment Annihilation-Endless Non-Existent Death, no consciousness, being like you were never Born.

3) Is the Punishment Endless  Eternal Separation from God's presence. The individual is in some location or state outside God's presence, suffering in emotional misery, but no physical pain, but spending eternity with others as miserable and unloving as them.

Also, what specifically needs to take place for any individual to avoid ending up in one of those situations. This is another major flaw with the Endless Punishment Believers. What I mean by that is this, If an individual is going to end up there, wouldn't they need to precisely know how to avoid ending up there and wouldn't God clearly explain through Scripture what exactly the punishment consists of. That shows Me that it's illogical and severely reduces Gods total Sovereignty, because no one from the Eternal Punishment camp seems to know what they need to believe and why, this is all based on such uncertainly presented by these different denominations of Christendom.

As an example, that Guy that I was in "Discussion" with at You-Tube commented by saying that " the only thing We aren't certain of is what exactly the Punishment is going to be, what exactly it consists of." After He made that statement twice during the course of a week's discussion, I considered stating to Him: " You mean that you don't know, if someone's so certain that God endlessly punishes someone, that Person making this claim aught to know exactly what it is, especially something so critically important to every individual that has ever lived. I never asked Brian Morgan this, because I removed myself from this discussion(Debate) because it seemed useless and futile.

Just My Two Cents, Samson.

[Duane]

Samson--good thinking as usual--

There seem to be many situations in the Bible where Jesus assured people a place in the kingdom or heaven--but as you know as well as I, they VARY from "go and sin no more"  to "they faith has saved thee" to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved (with no specific requirements for what "believe" entails) to "I say to thee today Thou shalt be with Me in paradise", "you are saved--and your (unknowing) household" (Philippian jailer) etc.
Yet, when asked by His disciples, the Lord's Prayer was given as a model.

However, as B-T'ers know--God has CHOSEN when, where, and what life (harvest) salvation will occur so the exact wording isn't important because GOD does the selecting and choosing. In the end--ALL of His creation will be saved soo the exact criterion for His predestined will isn't necessary.  This is MY understanding (and I want new readers to realize this)

Part two:  We know that the resurrected body will be "spirit" so how you "burn a spirit" is unknown to me.  (SEE Ray's tome on the "Lazarus's Parable".  We DO know that God's creatures (man) won't experience "mortality" because "the wages of sin is death" BUT Jesus "paid the price of sin on the cross" and at DEATH  a person's SPIRIT returns to God while the soul and body await the "resurrection (of the soul) at the return of Jesus.

Samson--I am not teaching you anything new as you have been a B-T'er longer than I and I usually learn from YOUR posts!

[Foxx]

I would combine 3 and 4 if it were me 

but very well thought out . It just furthers the ridiculous inconsistencies in flawed doctrines of man. You could make another post describing how many types ways salvation there according to these churches and "believers". That would be interesting as well.

[Kat]

Hi Duane,

Concerning part 2 of your last post.

Part two:  We know that the resurrected body will be "spirit" so how you "burn a spirit" is unknown to me.  (SEE Ray's tome on the "Lazarus's Parable".  We DO know that God's creatures (man) won't experience "mortality" because "the wages of sin is death" BUT Jesus "paid the price of sin on the cross" and at DEATH  a person's SPIRIT returns to God while the soul and body await the "resurrection (of the soul) at the return of Jesus.

Well I believe it is true that man "won't experience mortality" after the resurrection, as we have Heb. 9:27 to assure us of that.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

But Ray has written a short article on the resurrected bodies of humanity will be physical (Physical or Spiritual Resurrection Bodies for the Wicked & Non-believers? http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html ). All accept the Elect will be raised back up with physical bodies and put back on the earth to live and learn righteousness (Isa. 26:9). That judgment is their "second death" that all must experience and that is what the Elect are going through right now (1 Peter 4:17). Only the Elect will be given spiritual bodies to enter the kingdom in the first resurrection.

The "fire" that all of humanity will experience in judgement (in LOF) will be like the fire that the Elect are experiencing now in this flesh body, when we are chastened, it all comes from God. They will certainly not be literally burn as we are not literally burn.

When a person physically dies, yes the spirit leaves the body and goes back to God, then the body goes back into the earth, it disintergrates and there is no more soul, as spirit + body = soul. The person that dies without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will not be in the first resurrection. A corrupt sinner that dies will not inherit the kingdom and incorruption, so they will be raised back to flesh bodies.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

So God will raise everybody back up with a new body and place their very own spirit back inside them, but some will be raised to 'Life' and a spiritual body to be in the kingdom and the rest will be raised physical to judgment and condemnation.

John 5:28-29  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Anyway here is part of the article mentioned.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html ----------

What KIND of new seed comes about from planting a seed that first must die?  1Co 15:37  "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain"

Are we told what the "other" grain might be that sprouts like "wheat?"  Yes, as a matter of fact, we are:  Mat 13:25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

And are these "tares" also gathered into the barns (brought into the Kingdom of God)?  NO, Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest [resurrection] I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles [different 'groups' at different 'burnings'?]  to burn them [in the Lake of Fire]: but gather the wheat into my barn [My KINGDOM].

NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up "immortal and incorruptible."

What else do we learn about the resurrection of God's Elect?  What are some of the features of their newly resurrected bodies?

"...but the glory of the celestial [high, above, heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [worldly, EARTHLY] is another" (Verse 40).

Which category do the Elect come in?  Now pay attention:  1Co 15:48-49  As is the earthy, such  ARE  they also that  ARE  earthy: and as is the heavenly, such  ARE  they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, WE SHALL  also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice that ONLY "we"  [God's Elect], not "they,"  "...shall bear the image of the heavenly."  Paul is speaking that "THEY, the earthy," and "WE, the heavenly," and only the "we" will "bear the image of the heavenly," not "they," the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake of Fire.

Now we can understand verse 50 in proper context:  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [corrupt men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Saddam Hussein]  inherit incorruption.

The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those "WE [who] have borne the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly."  And this happens at a specific time:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory"  (I Cor. 15:51-54).

It is the "we" and the "us" that will be changed at the last trump, not the "they" and the "them."
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Duane]

Kat--thank you! thank you !  thank you!  That answered a lot of questions and I will be studying those inserts and your message for quite a while to assimilate it.  Thank you for all the time and thought it took to put into it.
I keep learning and learning and growing and growing and the more I do this the FARTHER WAY my beliefs go from my critics and detractors but I will ENDURE with God's help and keep growing!  Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by ALL for my name's sake. But he who ENDURES TO THE END will be saved".  DAT'S ME!!  :-)