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[acomplishedartis]

you guys, listen to the kid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSsZ-4RIk0A&feature=related

[mavis92379]

Hi Gang,

The purpose of the thread was never to suggest Einstein had a better understanding than God. It was to suggest just what kind understanding Jesus possessed of the universe and its mysteries. The disciples were able to heal the sick also and raise the dead. Is there something scientific about raising dead people that can be explained ? Jesus Christ DID SOMETHING TO THESE PEOPLE WHEN HE HEALED THEM ! The women touched his garmet and power left him ! What is this power ? Can this power that cures people of diseases and raises them from the dead on some insane level of intelligence be explained  ? I have no doubt in my mind that Jesus performed many miracles. But could he actually explain what he did when he performed one ? It appears to me like he altered laws at will to accomplish things like walking on the water and healing sick people.

Im sorry I just believe he did these things but am just fascinated and perplexed on the possibilities on what he actually did to accomplish them !

[Gina]

I find it just as fascinating when someone goes and gets a clear diagnosis of cancer and then people simply pray for that person and then there's no trace of cancer anywhere in their body.  Or, like, in the case of Ray, that's a miracle--he isn't supposed to be here according to "science."

Consider, too, that there was a town that Jesus entered but didn't perform many miracles there because of their lack of faith/unbelief.  As if to say that faith/belief on the our part (that Jesus does heal) is part and parcel of the miracles Jesus performs.  Though, we know we have nothing (including faith/belief) that wasn't first given us. 

I'm sure it can be explained logically and not insanely, lol,  (like when Galileo was considered "mad" by the Roman Church because he understood that the earth was not flat and that it revolved around the sun and not the other way around).

Consider this:  we witness a miracle with the rising of the sun every day. There are miracles we're witnessing every day all around us.  Are we overlooking them and considering them not miraculous simply because we're accustomed to seeing them everyday?   I sure don't know the answer, but I'm willing to listen and to speculate all day long is what I'm trying to say.  :-)

[Gina]

What we know as light is only a small section of the larger electromagnetic spectrum, which is part of the physical creation of God.  God's light is not the same as the light we see.  It's like comparing lightning to a lightning bug.

In the Book of Isaiah it states that God created darkness.  Darkness is a created thing to shroud the true Light of God from our view, or It would destroy us.

And, yes, when we are born again, we will try to race a light beam and go faster than it.  Why?  Because it's there and we can.  It's part of the spark of God in us.  We will do things just for the fun of it.

Darkness is only created when God removes His light.  To get darkness you remove light, you don't bring darkness in.

John 1:4-5  In him was life, and that life was the light of men.  The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 

Some versions do not say "overcome" but "comprehend' or "perceive."

per·ceive

1. to become aware of, know, or identify by means of the senses: I perceived an object looming through the mist.

2. to recognize, discern, envision, or understand: I perceive a note of sarcasm in your voice.

Origin:
1250–1300; Middle English perceiven  < Anglo-French *perceivre,  for perçoivre  < Latin percipere  to lay hold of, grasp, equivalent to per- per-  + -cipere,  combining form of capere--to take

[Akira329]

Hey Matt!
Your not alone....
I think about these things too!
I do believe something was happening to these people that could be explained.
I do believe science one day will be able to explain maybe replicate someday.
I'm not superstitious so an explanation will be given one day.

I think about it this way....
For God to turn water into wine a chemical process must be going on right?

As God is the creator of the universe he knows the chemical formula for specific wines.
Water has a molecular formula and as chemical elements are added to that formula the properties of water change.
What's amazing is how God does this without physically adding anything to the the water.
As all things have a chemical make up God knows what was needed to turn water into wine and besides, he has better access to these chemical elements than we do.

We need a lab, he does it anywhere!

You can apply this same process to any miracle Christ performed. Each with there own set of complications.

Also remember Matt what's more important:
John 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I believe what we should realize is that as advances in science progress so does the realty that these types of miracle healings will be common.
There will be a day where we won't marvel at the regeneration of an amputees arms, legs, or even head!
Because, so what!!
It doesn't change the heart of that man or woman.
Christ healed many people and yet that healing does not convert any of them.

We have to remember that the greater work is the work of salvation!
Physically healing someone is one of God's many tools in that process.

We have a lot to learn but.....
repent first!! 

Antaiwan

[Gina]

Hey Matt!
Your not alone....
I think about these things too!
I do believe something was happening to these people that could be explained.
I do believe science one day will be able to explain maybe replicate someday.
I'm not superstitious so an explanation will be given one day.

I think about it this way....
For God to turn water into wine a chemical process must be going on right?

As God is the creator of the universe he knows the chemical formula for specific wines.
Water has a molecular formula and as chemical elements are added to that formula the properties of water change.
What's amazing is how God does this without physically adding anything to the the water.
As all things have a chemical make up God knows what was needed to turn water into wine and besides, he has better access to these chemical elements than we do.

We need a lab, he does it anywhere!

You can apply this same process to any miracle Christ performed. Each with there own set of complications.

Also remember Matt what's more important:
John 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I believe what we should realize is that as advances in science progress so does the realty that these types of miracle healings will be common.
There will be a day where we won't marvel at the regeneration of an amputees arms, legs, or even head!
Because, so what!!
It doesn't change the heart of that man or woman.
Christ healed many people and yet that healing does not convert any of them.

We have to remember that the greater work is the work of salvation!
Physically healing someone is one of God's many tools in that process.

We have a lot to learn but.....
repent first!! 

Antaiwan

Hi Antawain,

This is a great reply!  You caused a flood of thoughts in me--thanks!    (I've been thinking so much lately about so many things and it's all coming out on the forum.  And everybody's been pretty patient!)

The bolded items you wrote struck me.  What I'm hearing may not be what you're saying:  The greater things Jesus told the disciples they would do are spiritual in nature:  being saved/made healthy.  But the physical healings are just one of God's many tools used to lead to salvation?  I hope I got that right.  lol

Then you say, "repent first."   And I automatically think:  but a sick, carnal-minded person can't repent not having been granted the ability to repent.  They just can't.  lol

2 Corinthians 7:10   Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret (wow, that's a great verse), but worldly sorrow brings death.

Romans 2:4  Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Acts 11:17   When they heard this, they calmed down, and praised God, saying, "So God has given repentance that leads to life even to gentiles."

Anyway, I agree that physical healings lead to salvation/health/being made whole.  But it makes me wonder whether a person can repent without a physical healing.  For instance, let's take the sin of coveting another man's wife, or sexual sin:  How is that repented of?  By turning our physical and spiritual eyes away from those things so as not to want them.   I mean, we see something with our physical eyes first before we lust for it (i.e., Eve looked and saw that the tree was good for food, etc.; Paul coveted with his eyes his neighbor's wife).  Aside from a full lobotomy or castration, I wonder if it'd be worth contemplating whether physical healing or operation of whatever sort would have to take place in order to change our heart of hearts.  Does that make sense?

[Akira329]

Hey Gina,

Then you say, "repent first."   And I automatically think:  but a sick, carnal-minded person can't repent not having been granted the ability to repent.  They just can't.  lol

I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say someone needs to be granted the ability to repent?
Are you saying a person can't repent unless they are physically healed?
Did anyone Jesus heal repent?

Then I read your last statement:

Anyway, I agree that physical healings lead to salvation/health/being made whole.

No, I'm not saying that at all.
Physical healings are a tool. Its a tool God doesn't always use.
Your sufferings in the flesh can do a lot to humble you.

Gina, your dwelling in the realm of actually dismembering your body to live holy!
That's not necessary.

You should read this excerpt from Ray:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html
Very enlightening and helpful!

Don't want to take away from Matt's thread.

Hope this helps!
Antaiwan

[cjwood]

hi gina.  i believe it all comes down to this.  repentance always comes through God in some form or fashion.  i.e., Godly sorrow, God's kindness, God's glory, etc.  it is God causing repentance to come into our hearts.  He does the giving of repentance, and, through this True repentance our physical, carnal lusts will be healed.

claudia

[Gina]

Okay.  But I believe there has to be physical/chemical restructuring in our brains and bodies for us to be able to repent first, in order to then be able to go on to being made whole.  But that's me.

Romans 10

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

It is by the hearing / reading of the gospel that people are transformed by the renewing of their minds, to have a Godly sorrow, which brings repentance which leads to salvation.  There's some chemical / physical reaction or change or restructuring in our brains taking place when we are granted hearing and sight to see and hear and believe the gospel.  Paul was struck blind before he turned and repented.  It's something like that.  I'm sorry.  I probably sound like I'm teaching.  I'm just trying to figure it out.

[Gina]

Hey Gina,

Then you say, "repent first."   And I automatically think:  but a sick, carnal-minded person can't repent not having been granted the ability to repent.  They just can't.  lol

I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say someone needs to be granted the ability to repent?
Are you saying a person can't repent unless they are physically healed?
Did anyone Jesus heal repent?

Then I read your last statement:

Anyway, I agree that physical healings lead to salvation/health/being made whole.

No, I'm not saying that at all.
Physical healings are a tool. Its a tool God doesn't always use.
Your sufferings in the flesh can do a lot to humble you.

Gina, your dwelling in the realm of actually dismembering your body to live holy!
That's not necessary.

You should read this excerpt from Ray:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html
Very enlightening and helpful!

Don't want to take away from Matt's thread.

Hope this helps!
Antaiwan

No I'm not.  You misunderstood.  And, no, I don't believe anyone is  detracting from Matt's thread, because his theme is on healing.

[Kat]

There is a spiritual healing and there is a physical healing, two different things. Jesus Christ most certainly physically healed many thousands of people during His lifetime on earth that were not converted/Elect. 

Then there are the few who are spiritually healed of spiritual blindness, nothing physical about it, these are those that have their eyes opened to these truths.

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ----------------

This is another one of those marvelous spiritual truths of Scripture, which you will never hear explained in the Church. Just what do they teach all these future clergymen in seminary? The fact is, Jesus did not want the people to understand Him and Jesus did not want them to repent and Jesus did not want to spiritually heal or save them. He clearly said so. But why? Because God has a plan that involves calling MANY, but choosing out only a FEW.

    "For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has" (Matt. 13:12).

Why did Jesus reveal His message, His gospel, His kingdom, His word to so very few people? Christ’s answer is much harder for most to believe than the parables themselves:

    "And the disciples came, and said unto Him, WHY speak You unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven [not at that precise time, but eventually, after His resurrection] but to them it is not given [not then OR later]. For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has [another parable answers the reason for parables]. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand [here Jesus gives us a parable within a riddle].

    "And in them [and in all future generations down through the centuries, save a very small elect few] is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart [the people’s heart in Isaiah’s day, Christ’s day, through the generations, and in our day] is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should HEAL them [SAVE them].

    "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men [all the patriarchs of the Old Testament] have desired to see those things which you see, and have NOT seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have NOT heard them" (Matt. 13:10-17).
------------------------------------------

Concerning physical healing, since Christ is the Creator/Designer of mankind and as God knows our human body in all it's intricacies, I think He would certainly knows when there is something physically wrong any where in a person's body down to the least lilttle thing in the body that was out of kilter. He would know what is wrong, what was need to correct it and I think could explain it to anybody as simply or as complicated as need be. That's just how I see it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

But what about first the physical, then the spiritual.

I mean, before Jesus came to preach the gospel in the guise of sinful flesh, he was only discerned spiritually, yet no one in the OT could be converted.  It wasn't till Jesus came in the flesh that people were able to be converted -- not saying they were converted, of course that didn't happen until after his resurrection when he came to them again and they saw him again and he breathed on them (doesn't breath have substance? -- I mean, think of breathalizers):

And with that he (first physically) breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit (after which they received the spirit--then the spiritual).

I believe the things (of substance) that the disciples saw and heard (with their physical senses) Jesus do and say in addition to being breathed on by Jesus was part and parcel of their spiritual conversion. 

Being spiritually converted shows itself in things of substance:   For instance, a spiritually converted person is different, it's like their hormones or whatever chemicals in their physical bodies are restructured in such a way that they no longer have dominion over them and so they don't get those pangs of desire when they see or hear something with their physical eyes and ears that would cause an unconverted person to stumble and fall into sin.  Ahhh. I'm just thinking out loud.  I'll stop there if this is bothering anyone.

[Kat]

Hi Gina,

Yes first the physical, then the spiritual, each of us must first live a physical life dead to the spiritual, before our eyes are opened to the spiritual.

John 20:22  And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

When Christ "breathed on them," whether they received the Holy Spirit at that time (Christ was risen already) or later at Pentecost, His physically breathing on them was not a prerequisite for receiving the Holy Spirit. I mean I do not believe that Christ must literally breaths on people when they are given the Holy Spirit.

I believe the things (of substance) that the disciples saw and heard (with their physical senses) Jesus do and say in addition to being breathed on by Jesus was part and parcel of their spiritual conversion. 

What about the Elect down through the ages who do not have any physical evidence of hearing or seeing Jesus like the disciples had? Jesus provides the faith we need without all the physical evidence.

John 20:29  Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

I personally do not believe that there is any physical difference in a converted person (hormonal or chemical). Unless of course by miracle God physically heals something in us, but I do not think that necessarily relates to convertion. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that gives a person that really great change and convertion and it makes all the difference, so that we can live a godly life in the world. It is only by the spiritual healing of our dead minds by the Holy Spirit living in us that we learn and grow and understand spiritual matters.

1Co 2:12  Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
v. 13  And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

I don't believe Christ must physically breathe on people either.  However, when Ray speaks or writes God's word to us, is he not performing a thing of substance, or physical in nature that causes our eyes and ears to ear and restructures our thinking?  There's something physical that takes place in our bodies when we see something we desire, or detest, or are fearful of, and it will cause the person receiving the information via hearing or sight to think and then act out what they're feeling -- maybe they run in fear from whatever they're seeing or hearing--much like we did when we heard the "gospel" of eternal torment. 

Likewise, there is something that is changed in us physically when we hear and read Ray speak God's word and watch him DO WHAT HE BELIEVES.  Then, we begin to take steps to do the things he says.  But that didn't happen until we first read (with our physical eyes) and/or heard him (with our physical ears) speak God's words to us.

[indianabob]

Well put John and I love your final sentence.

Dark energy and dark matter are guesses.  Another idol bites the dust.  God rules, man drools.   

Dave from Tennessee, nice observation. If you make little dots on a balloon, so they are quite close together, as an unblown balloon is small and tight quarters, then blow that balloon up, so that its diameter grows outwardly at a constant rate, the surface area of the balloon (two dimensional space) will cause those dots to move apart faster and faster, in direct proportion to the growth of the surface area of the balloon.  It is not the dots that have the intrinsic motion, it is the balloons growth that is happening.  The dots are along for the ride, and evermore recede more and more rapidly from each other.  You could use, in three dimensional, space, the raising of a loaf of bread with rainsins.  The raisins furthest from the center would be moving apart the fastest.

That is a simple analogy to universal expansion and the rate of speed of galaxies.  The universe itself is expanding, and as it grows larger, even if it was expanding at a constant rate, the galaxies contained within WILL be carried along at ever increasing speed. Since it is space itself that it is expanding, the galaxies at the periphery will be carried much more quickly than the ones further in. When we talk of the motion of these galaxies, we are not talking about this motion as a property of the galaxy, it is space itself that is enlarging.

So whether Einstein was incorrect depends on very narrow definitions.  His field equations are still the bedrock for understanding of these things. I think he had a good handle on these things, though obviously things like dark energy and dark matter, have post dated him.

And just in my opinion only, I cannot see how one could even say that God "moves" If God is everywhere, what need of movement? Where would He go? If I am on Alpha Centauri, He is there. If I am on earth, He is there.  If I am on the furthest Cephid Variable, He is there. He has no need to move. He is so far above any mundane concept such as speed, that He is not to be included.

These thoughts are fascinating. I am glad He gave us minds that would be intrigued by them and search out the wonders of the universe. It shows us His eternal power and Godhead, truly.

My friend Doug.  I don't want to argue.  But your balloon analogy doesn't hold up.  It's soooo 20th Century, just like Einstein.

At first, Einstein was wrong, like his fellow scientists, in thinking that the universe was static.  Later, after the discoveries by Edwin Hubble that the universe was expanding, Einstein and others thought the universe was expanding in a spherical form, controlled by gravity.  They thought, in error, that in the universe, two parallel lines would eventually cross, turn in on themselves by the forces of gravity.  Similar to how the lines of longitude on earth all come together at the North and South Poles.

Well, a little over ten years ago, a group of scientists studying and measuring the background microwave radiation from the Big Bang discovered that the universe is not spherical like a balloon, but follows what they call "flat" geometry.  That is two parallel lines will not cross.  The Big Bang was so powerful that everything was so flung out (or stretched) that gravity is not curving in on itself.  These scientist's discoveries supported the observations of those in the late 1990s that the universe is speeding up as it expands.  No end of the expansion in sight.

The great Einstein and the great Stephen Hawking were both wrong.  Also, Einstein's theories cannot explain what happened a second before the Big Bang nor what the inside of a black hole is (that is a reverse of a Big Bang).

It's not very well known, but most scientists cannot explain or prove the new discoveries with the old theories.  c

[G. Driggs]

Hey Matt,

Not sure if this is relevant, but one way a person could be healed by God with a little scientific and physical proof is through the literal rewiring of the brain.

Rom 12:2  Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

This got me curious so I did a little digging around to see if the "renewal of your mind" has any physical and literal effect on the brain, and i found a few interesting things. Here is a little quote from http://www.thelifemanagementalliance.com/Psychological/ThinkingBrain/BrainRewiring.html

ACTUAL PHYSICAL REWIRING

A vital concept to know.   For with the understanding that you can actually rewire the brain physically, you can create much happiness and eliminate much stress and unhappiness.

The plasticity of the brain surprised scientists when they documented it.  They thought it couldn’t be changed much past young adulthood.

They found, however, that any one particular use of the brain, if repeated for a while (3 months or longer was better), would actually cause brain circuits (neuronal pathways) to be created.  And if that particular use caused another use (like an old habit, for instance) not to be done for awhile, the old pathway began to get weaker and weaker and then wither away!


WHAT THAT MEANS IN OUR LIVES

So we can change ways of thinking, habits, attitudes, attention span, and a number of other traits and abilities, just through repeated systematic use.

We all know from Ray papers that, in a nutshell, its all in the brain.

I often wonder if all these new ideas we've learned here at bt has had a physical effect on our brains, cause it sure seems like it.

I dunno Matt, what do you think? Comments, critics, corrections and silence welcome.  Sorry if i got off topic

G.Driggs

[acomplishedartis]

Here is proof that there ''There's is something physical that takes place in our bodies'' when we chose to obey God or not,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

of course the choosing is never ''free''.


ps. It took me so long to find that video, somebody once posted it on the forum. it is of the most interest to me.

[Kat]

Hi G.Driggs,

They found, however, that any one particular use of the brain, if repeated for a while (3 months or longer was better), would actually cause brain circuits (neuronal pathways) to be created.  And if that particular use caused another use (like an old habit, for instance) not to be done for awhile, the old pathway began to get weaker and weaker and then wither away!

I think that shows that there is a 'process' in learning righteousness and unlearning bad habits. There are physicals things that are transpiring in the brain as we go through this process.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

Hey Gina,
I believe I understand where your coming from.
If God needs to rewire your brain to understand or comprehend his word, than so be it. To God the glory.
So, sure something chemical happens that causes you to act in certain ways. All is of God.
Like I said, its just a tool towards becoming a better man/woman.

When I have a headache, I become very irritable and short tempered sometimes.
I take a headache medicine, I feel better! All is of God!
But that's not the end.
Can we be made whole in the flesh?
Can we be saved while in the flesh?
Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Remember,
Gal 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
The law of God(physical laws) does not make you perfect.
The spiritual law working in your mind does convert you.
To be perfect, you must be born again of the spirit.
To be saved, you must be resurrected to life.

I now have hope that whatever chemical process that causes my headache to go away will be permanent in the kingdom!

So, can science create a man perfect in the flesh? Not as long as death reigns.
God can heal you of all that ales you! That's a physical solution.
His solution for sin and death is spiritual.

Hope I got what your trying to explain Gina.
Antaiwan
 

[Gina]

I'm sorry, Antawain.  Right now I'm at a loss for words having finished reading Ray's letter to "Friends."  I'm very sad, to put it mildly.  When I read the words he wrote, something happened inside my body and I'm feeling a little tense. 

I like to dance when I'm feeling that way because it causes an increase in endorphins -- you know, those "feel good" chemicals in the brain that lift our spirit, so we can function better as children of the Most High God. 

I will try and respond to you, but  not tonight.