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Sharing a thought
Kat:
There is a spiritual healing and there is a physical healing, two different things. Jesus Christ most certainly physically healed many thousands of people during His lifetime on earth that were not converted/Elect.
Then there are the few who are spiritually healed of spiritual blindness, nothing physical about it, these are those that have their eyes opened to these truths.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ----------------
This is another one of those marvelous spiritual truths of Scripture, which you will never hear explained in the Church. Just what do they teach all these future clergymen in seminary? The fact is, Jesus did not want the people to understand Him and Jesus did not want them to repent and Jesus did not want to spiritually heal or save them. He clearly said so. But why? Because God has a plan that involves calling MANY, but choosing out only a FEW.
"For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has" (Matt. 13:12).
Why did Jesus reveal His message, His gospel, His kingdom, His word to so very few people? Christ’s answer is much harder for most to believe than the parables themselves:
"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, WHY speak You unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven [not at that precise time, but eventually, after His resurrection] but to them it is not given [not then OR later]. For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has [another parable answers the reason for parables]. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand [here Jesus gives us a parable within a riddle].
"And in them [and in all future generations down through the centuries, save a very small elect few] is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart [the people’s heart in Isaiah’s day, Christ’s day, through the generations, and in our day] is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should HEAL them [SAVE them].
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men [all the patriarchs of the Old Testament] have desired to see those things which you see, and have NOT seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have NOT heard them" (Matt. 13:10-17).
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Concerning physical healing, since Christ is the Creator/Designer of mankind and as God knows our human body in all it's intricacies, I think He would certainly knows when there is something physically wrong any where in a person's body down to the least lilttle thing in the body that was out of kilter. He would know what is wrong, what was need to correct it and I think could explain it to anybody as simply or as complicated as need be. That's just how I see it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
But what about first the physical, then the spiritual.
I mean, before Jesus came to preach the gospel in the guise of sinful flesh, he was only discerned spiritually, yet no one in the OT could be converted. It wasn't till Jesus came in the flesh that people were able to be converted -- not saying they were converted, of course that didn't happen until after his resurrection when he came to them again and they saw him again and he breathed on them (doesn't breath have substance? -- I mean, think of breathalizers):
And with that he (first physically) breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit (after which they received the spirit--then the spiritual).
I believe the things (of substance) that the disciples saw and heard (with their physical senses) Jesus do and say in addition to being breathed on by Jesus was part and parcel of their spiritual conversion.
Being spiritually converted shows itself in things of substance: For instance, a spiritually converted person is different, it's like their hormones or whatever chemicals in their physical bodies are restructured in such a way that they no longer have dominion over them and so they don't get those pangs of desire when they see or hear something with their physical eyes and ears that would cause an unconverted person to stumble and fall into sin. Ahhh. I'm just thinking out loud. I'll stop there if this is bothering anyone.
Kat:
Hi Gina,
Yes first the physical, then the spiritual, each of us must first live a physical life dead to the spiritual, before our eyes are opened to the spiritual.
John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
When Christ "breathed on them," whether they received the Holy Spirit at that time (Christ was risen already) or later at Pentecost, His physically breathing on them was not a prerequisite for receiving the Holy Spirit. I mean I do not believe that Christ must literally breaths on people when they are given the Holy Spirit.
--- Quote ---I believe the things (of substance) that the disciples saw and heard (with their physical senses) Jesus do and say in addition to being breathed on by Jesus was part and parcel of their spiritual conversion.
--- End quote ---
What about the Elect down through the ages who do not have any physical evidence of hearing or seeing Jesus like the disciples had? Jesus provides the faith we need without all the physical evidence.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
I personally do not believe that there is any physical difference in a converted person (hormonal or chemical). Unless of course by miracle God physically heals something in us, but I do not think that necessarily relates to convertion. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that gives a person that really great change and convertion and it makes all the difference, so that we can live a godly life in the world. It is only by the spiritual healing of our dead minds by the Holy Spirit living in us that we learn and grow and understand spiritual matters.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
v. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
I don't believe Christ must physically breathe on people either. However, when Ray speaks or writes God's word to us, is he not performing a thing of substance, or physical in nature that causes our eyes and ears to ear and restructures our thinking? There's something physical that takes place in our bodies when we see something we desire, or detest, or are fearful of, and it will cause the person receiving the information via hearing or sight to think and then act out what they're feeling -- maybe they run in fear from whatever they're seeing or hearing--much like we did when we heard the "gospel" of eternal torment.
Likewise, there is something that is changed in us physically when we hear and read Ray speak God's word and watch him DO WHAT HE BELIEVES. Then, we begin to take steps to do the things he says. But that didn't happen until we first read (with our physical eyes) and/or heard him (with our physical ears) speak God's words to us.
indianabob:
Well put John and I love your final sentence.
Dark energy and dark matter are guesses. Another idol bites the dust. God rules, man drools. ;D
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on January 31, 2012, 10:58:40 PM ---
--- Quote from: DougE6 on January 31, 2012, 08:18:51 PM ---
Dave from Tennessee, nice observation. If you make little dots on a balloon, so they are quite close together, as an unblown balloon is small and tight quarters, then blow that balloon up, so that its diameter grows outwardly at a constant rate, the surface area of the balloon (two dimensional space) will cause those dots to move apart faster and faster, in direct proportion to the growth of the surface area of the balloon. It is not the dots that have the intrinsic motion, it is the balloons growth that is happening. The dots are along for the ride, and evermore recede more and more rapidly from each other. You could use, in three dimensional, space, the raising of a loaf of bread with rainsins. The raisins furthest from the center would be moving apart the fastest.
That is a simple analogy to universal expansion and the rate of speed of galaxies. The universe itself is expanding, and as it grows larger, even if it was expanding at a constant rate, the galaxies contained within WILL be carried along at ever increasing speed. Since it is space itself that it is expanding, the galaxies at the periphery will be carried much more quickly than the ones further in. When we talk of the motion of these galaxies, we are not talking about this motion as a property of the galaxy, it is space itself that is enlarging.
So whether Einstein was incorrect depends on very narrow definitions. His field equations are still the bedrock for understanding of these things. I think he had a good handle on these things, though obviously things like dark energy and dark matter, have post dated him.
And just in my opinion only, I cannot see how one could even say that God "moves" If God is everywhere, what need of movement? Where would He go? ;D If I am on Alpha Centauri, He is there. If I am on earth, He is there. If I am on the furthest Cephid Variable, He is there. He has no need to move. He is so far above any mundane concept such as speed, that He is not to be included.
These thoughts are fascinating. I am glad He gave us minds that would be intrigued by them and search out the wonders of the universe. It shows us His eternal power and Godhead, truly.
--- End quote ---
My friend Doug. I don't want to argue. But your balloon analogy doesn't hold up. It's soooo 20th Century, just like Einstein.
At first, Einstein was wrong, like his fellow scientists, in thinking that the universe was static. Later, after the discoveries by Edwin Hubble that the universe was expanding, Einstein and others thought the universe was expanding in a spherical form, controlled by gravity. They thought, in error, that in the universe, two parallel lines would eventually cross, turn in on themselves by the forces of gravity. Similar to how the lines of longitude on earth all come together at the North and South Poles.
Well, a little over ten years ago, a group of scientists studying and measuring the background microwave radiation from the Big Bang discovered that the universe is not spherical like a balloon, but follows what they call "flat" geometry. That is two parallel lines will not cross. The Big Bang was so powerful that everything was so flung out (or stretched) that gravity is not curving in on itself. These scientist's discoveries supported the observations of those in the late 1990s that the universe is speeding up as it expands. No end of the expansion in sight.
The great Einstein and the great Stephen Hawking were both wrong. Also, Einstein's theories cannot explain what happened a second before the Big Bang nor what the inside of a black hole is (that is a reverse of a Big Bang).
It's not very well known, but most scientists cannot explain or prove the new discoveries with the old theories. c
--- End quote ---
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