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Author Topic: ''just another tread about money''  (Read 7222 times)

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moshe

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''just another tread about money''
« on: February 01, 2012, 04:32:14 AM »

As an introductory note: I do believe that I can be able to back up all this information, it will be just a resume of things that have been going on through my ''young'' mind. Who knows, it might finish giving encorage to somebody.

First I want to put down a couple unfair and unworthy questions that you might have heard around. Because I think that we should not participate on this type of hypothetical and vane reasoning's:

          ''If you had the power and money how would you run and fix the world, how would you address the problem of...   this... and that...?  ''

The truth is that a lot of money and worldly power will never bring us more chances for a more piety, peaceful and quiet life. There is no way our limited mind can have a better plan than Gods, He is the Creator and His masterpiece is perfect and it is still in process. And we are not to pretend to be gods. 

Also I have heard before:

          ''If everyone would think and do as you, now, imagine how the world would become? I don't like neither how things are now but this is how things and money work around here, so you better comply...''

However, on this life nobody had ever think exactly like me and nobody never will, so that argument should never apply. Also since God is in control and not any human freewill, all the wrong and evil we see today doesn't match with how things with humans will always work. Actually this is how all things really work: God being the potter and humans being the clay, there you have a real absolute.


We don't need more money to start trying to live a piety live, it is more important to build our character than to accomplish material dreams (God's is giving an experience of evil to humanity to humble him, if He wanted to give everybody and experience of abundance and total bliss right now, many things would be different.)

    Now, before keep on talking about money, again, what is money?
Money was only a medium of exchange for the increasingly complex transactions, it is a just a peace of paper that people in general give certain value to it, money is like little cage vouchers, money is a mental idea and we have been trained to respect it and even praise it.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 07:07:15 AM by Moises »
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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 05:32:08 AM »

The habitual problem of greed. A few years ago I used to own an small business, I was doing okay, but life bring me knowledge about some things that where not right with me and my bussines, One day I saw a very greedy being in the mirror and decided to left it all, even so I was younger, man I was so greedy, more in my mind than on my wallet, thanks God my business never grew as Mark Zuckerberg's, thanks God my list of mistakes never materialized so much that I would have to keep carry them on.


I don't care that the 95% of the capitalist societies doesn't agree with me, I will say it anyway: When we are waiting and wishing to be ''economically rich'', we have been made weak enough to fall into the temptation of avarice. This desires are something that ''poor'' and ''rich'' often share. Beyond our real basic human needs, this desires are mostly just a mental state for richness! Covet is a sin that is the precursor to many additional sins. Paul said to one of the first communities of believers that greed should not be even mentioned among them (Ephesians 5:3).

    However, mainstream culture tell us over and over again; ''greed is good, greed is right, greed works''. And when I say the word culture I am talking about the customs, habits, beliefs, values, arts and behaviors, I am talking about what constitutes peoples way of life.
But WE must worry not, we are slowly learning a new culture, we are supposedly ambassadors of a much grater place, and our habits, values and beliefs are little by little getting reshaped by God's lessons and revelations to our lives.

      Maybe is not my job to judge the greed of society at large, what I am trying to help us understand in here is others  habit's and belief's according to the environmental factors and the internal condition of the human heart that shape society today. If I were to specifically expose others greed and covet I would better start with unashamed pastors and coward theologians.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 04:23:40 AM by Moises »
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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 06:02:31 AM »

Good Reasons why to worry not about money. Have we ever thought what is like to be in the situations of people that seem more unfortunate? How can we know how bad it is if we never experience it? ...Often, rather than having mercy we tend to look at this situations just as a remembrance to don't complain on small things, an opportunity to feel better about our selves or we see them with fear of ever founding our selves in those ugly shoes... I have been guilty of all. But I keep thinking about this things and try to remember that I am no better, there has been occasions I have put my self in difficult situations to know at list glimpse of what is like, I don't expect anyone to do the same, I know I have gone far, sometimes maybe too far, but also I wanted to be better trained on surviving skills and kill some personal fears.

Back to the subject. Here are some good reasons why to worry not about money:

  • God says that we shouldn't worry about anything (Matthew 6:25) -no matter how much we worry about it, we are not going to grow up not even one millimeter

  • There is many reason why the world (including their banks, politics, churches, and marketers) want to scare us.Fear is one of the strongest appeals to get something out of us. But now we are becoming to know better. And not even social pressure, the mass media or our old taken for granted assumptions should make us any harm.

  • Because ALL is of God (2Cor 5:18). An so we have to keep always in mind whatever we can grasp of the whole picture of God's master plan.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 07:10:14 AM by Moises »
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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 06:36:38 AM »

The secret solution.

''I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need.''
   Apostle Paul

  The only way that we will ever have enough is considering that we have enough--Right Now. Be happy and grateful with what we have and what life has already showed us. God knows very well our basic needs! and He also knows how much pressure we are personally able to handle.

Paul knew about his basic human needs very well, he was a survivor, he was a man with only God as his primary authority (as well as Ray). So Paul really knew what was he talking about when he said that he had master the secret of being content whatever the situation.


       I am about to finish my money tread... One thing that one day suddenly came to my mind was what does it really means that God is going to judge us according to OUR OWN works (according to our own perception of reality and capacities), think about it for longer and you will start to see things less dark regarding your accounts to God, He surely does takes in account our naivety and ignorance, and that He made us with a very weak heart, He is very just and responsible. And since we all have a different background, a different list of mistakes stuck in our backs we are the only ones that can honestly draw a picture of our currently basic human needs, a list that will help us to stay away easier of covet and see material objects just for their utility, a list of things that we really need, a list not made with a bunch of idols from our hearts.

However,

Lets just keep in mind one thing; wherever we live and whatever we own, let's try to don't ever make a shame and mortify those who have nothing when building up our personal lists and lifestyles.


Okay, now I am done. I didn't meant to take so much time and space, as you know these themes could expand into pages and pages, but hopefully I have already expressed clearly the main points.



One man considers himself rich, yet has nothing [to keep permanently]; another man considers himself poor, yet has great [and indestructible] riches. (Proverbs 13:7)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 07:30:42 AM by Moises »
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Fester

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 08:55:07 PM »

 
I have been lurking in the bushes for some time now after reading this.
Am I the only one seeing the holes in this swiss cheese dissertation?
 
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cjwood

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 12:04:58 AM »



One man considers himself rich, yet has nothing [to keep permanently]; another man considers himself poor, yet has great [and indestructible] riches. (Proverbs 13:7)






don't see any holes in this tasty cheese fester.  just sayin.   :)

claudia
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Akira329

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 04:20:11 AM »


I have been lurking in the bushes for some time now after reading this.
Am I the only one seeing the holes in this swiss cheese dissertation?

Where are the holes? What are you seeing that others do not?
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cjwood

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 04:31:31 AM »

perhaps the pancake on fester's bunny's head is causing a shadow over the cheese.   ;)

claudia
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Gina

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 04:55:53 AM »

This is a great thread:

Moises wrote:
Quote
There is many reason why the world (including their banks, politics, churches, and marketers) want to scare us.Fear is one of the strongest appeals to get something out of us. But now we are becoming to know better. And not even social pressure, the mass media or our old taken for granted assumptions should make us any harm.

Yes, we are starting to learn and coming to know much better how to handle or stand up to that social pressure so we don't suffer any harm, very true.  Well put.

And I was thinking about this very thing tonight.  Those institutions make people fear by telling them the clock is ticking on their opportunity to buy what they're trying to sell.  "This deal is over in 24 hours.  Time is running out!"  As if there won't be any more opportunities or deals!  As if the thing they're selling won't exist tomorrow.  As if it'll never go out of style, never grow old, or rust.  It's all in an attempt to get us to part with our money because people with money are considered by many to be  more attractive/desirable, more intelligent, more trustworthy.   

There is nothing at all wrong with being rich or having money.  Remember, Abraham and Job?  (The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.  Money isn't evil in and of itself.  Money would be worthless if there weren't things to exchange for it.)  It's when our hearts want things way above and beyond the necessities because we believe this will make us look better (pride of life) in the eyes of so many others. 

Many see someone who has lots of expensive material possessions as better (more attractive, intelligent and more trustworthy) than themselves and others.  Many people literally desire to know and be among people with money.  Even though the poor God causes to be rich in faith.

You'll never see a poor televangelist with a following 40,000 strong.  Not that I vote, but anyone ever see a politician wearing sweats instead of a silk suit with lots of backers?  lol  That's not to say that everyone who has money is dead set on doing evil (again, thinking of Abraham and Job). 

But it's interesting the ways marketing companies get us to part with our money.

I watched a really good movie with Demi Moore and David Duchovny recently (about 25 times, Craig, lol) called "The Joneses."   It's about a group of four people who work for a company called "Stealth Marketing."  It's fascinating and the trailers don't do it justice (I think it may have bombed at the box office, but it should not have!). 
They go undercover as a very rich family who can afford the best of everything.  Stealth Marketing strategically places them in beautiful homes in very affluent neighborhoods.  And their job basically is to "model" everything from cars, to clothes, to jewelry to food, but to make it look to their neighbors and "friends" like they actually bought the stuff fair and square.  Consequently, their neighbors look to them as if they're "gods" and they become envious/covetous, which causes them to want the same things or better than the Joneses have (it's all about keeping up with the Joneses).  Spoiler alert!    One of their neighbors falls for their act hook, line and sinker and is easily talked into buying all kinds of expensive stuff just to impress his greedy, immature, selfish wife (because she's bored of him and he wants love nad affection, but she isn't giving him any).  So he goes broke and loses the big, beautiful house he worked so hard to buy, he knows he's in trouble, and feels like a loser, but he can't bring himself to tell his wife what he's done (knowing she'll leave him for another man who does have money), and he drowns himself in the swimming pool in their big, beautiful, lush backyard.

The last couple years with the loss of jobs and everything, I've seen headlines that read:  "Father shoots wife and three children and turns gun on self."  But you read a little further and you find the man lost his job and was no longer able to feed his family and that meant everything to him.  So, to "save face" he shoots them and then turns the gun on himself.  Being in the poorhouse is so unattractive.

I rambled.

Bottom line, money isn't evil, but how we go about getting it and spending it can be.
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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 05:08:27 AM »


I have been lurking in the bushes for some time now after reading this.
Am I the only one seeing the holes in this swiss cheese dissertation?

Hi Fester.
Okay, I am listening. Please be a little bit more specific.

In case I wasn't clear enough, I apologize,

On the first tittle my main point is that we do not need money to start trying to live a piety live, You can read Ray's transcript called ''QUALIFYING FOR RULER-SHIP WITH NO LEADERSHIP, MONEY OR TALENTS'' and you will see that we are talking about the same. It might not be an easy concept to accept but it is the truth.

On my second tittle, I am just talking against greed, including the sordid desire to become rich,
''Now, those intending to be rich are falling into a trial and a trap and the many foolish and harmful desires which are swamping men in extermination and destruction.''(1Tim. 6:9) Concordant Literal New Testament
I don't think you will dare to defend greed. If you see holes in that plain verse, oh well.

On the third tittle, I gave tree reason why to not worry about money and I also shared a personal experience.
(tell me which one of the three reasons you don't agree with)

On my last tittle I quoted Paul, actually that was one of my favorite verses. After that I said that God will judge us individually according to our works (I have a verse for that) and then I dared to suggest that we should make a list of what we can come to consider our personal basic needs with the purpose of helping us somehow to stay away of covet.

Let me know where do you see the holes... I don't know the main intention of your comment, actually I don't even know about what are you talking against. This is why I made a short resume of my long last posts.

Fester, If what you mean is that the whole subject could expand and get more examples and subtopics, I agree, however, I tried to make it as short as I could for the forum. I believe I know what I am talking about. I understand some of this specific concepts might be too much to assimilate for many of us, however, they are all true.

Moises



« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 05:13:10 AM by Moises »
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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 06:16:33 AM »

Gina, I glad you liked these long tread.


And I was thinking about this very thing tonight.  Those institutions make people fear by telling them the clock is ticking on their opportunity to buy what they're trying to sell.  "This deal is over in 24 hours.  Time is running out!"  As if there won't be any more opportunities or deals!  As if the thing they're selling won't exist tomorrow.  As if it'll never go out of style, never grow old, or rust.  It's all in an attempt to get us to part with our money because people with money are considered by many to be  more attractive/desirable, more intelligent, more trustworthy.   
Yes advertisings (and advertisers) usually take advantage, I think the good ones (the most skilfull advertisers) are very smart people. It is good observation to contemplate how things get old and rust so quick. Yeah people that consider themselves rich and superior are usually so busy buying unnecessary s***

There is nothing at all wrong with being rich or having money.  Remember, Abraham and Job?  (The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.  Money isn't evil in and of itself.  Money would be worthless if there weren't things to exchange for it.)  It's when our hearts want things way above and beyond the necessities because we believe this will make us look better (pride of life) in the eyes of so many others. 

Many see someone who has lots of expensive material possessions as better (more attractive, intelligent and more trustworthy) than themselves and others.  Many people literally desire to know and be among people with money.  Even though the poor God causes to be rich in faith.

I agree that there is nothing wrong by itself with being rich or having money. Then it would be unfair to inherit something great. Money this day's doesn't worth that much and even less for people that is not very good at the time to spend it. The concept of believe to be rich and poor is very relative. If we would get strict with the terms. A dirty hungry kid on the streets with no debts is more rich than a well dreesed Sr on his luxury car whom have a lot of debts.

I grew up in a high middle class family that used to see people in other social classes as inferior, and the rich as superior, but since my journey of learning bible truths started (like 8years ago) my world view and taken for granted assuptions have been changing continually, sometimes too fast, painfully and too drastic.

But it's interesting the ways marketing companies get us to part with our money.

I watched a really good movie with Demi Moore and David Duchovny recently (about 25 times, Craig, lol) called "The Joneses."   It's about a group of four people who work for a company called "Stealth Marketing."  It's fascinating and the trailers don't do it justice (I think it may have bombed at the box office, but it should not have!). 
They go undercover as a very rich family who can afford the best of everything.  Stealth Marketing strategically places them in beautiful homes in very affluent neighborhoods.  And their job basically is to "model" everything from cars, to clothes, to jewelry to food, but to make it look to their neighbors and "friends" like they actually bought the stuff fair and square.  Consequently, their neighbors look to them as if they're "gods" and they become envious/covetous, which causes them to want the same things or better than the Joneses have (it's all about keeping up with the Joneses).  Spoiler alert!    One of their neighbors falls for their act hook, line and sinker and is easily talked into buying all kinds of expensive stuff just to impress his greedy, immature, selfish wife (because she's bored of him and he wants love nad affection, but she isn't giving him any).  So he goes broke and loses the big, beautiful house he worked so hard to buy, he knows he's in trouble, and feels like a loser, but he can't bring himself to tell his wife what he's done (knowing she'll leave him for another man who does have money), and he drowns himself in the swimming pool in their big, beautiful, lush backyard.
Sound like a very interesting script, so that is where the phrase ''keeping up with the Joneses'' comes from, I didn't know (will watch the movie). It is also kind of funny how does envy and social pressure works

The last couple years with the loss of jobs and everything, I've seen headlines that read:  "Father shoots wife and three children and turns gun on self."  But you read a little further and you find the man lost his job and was no longer able to feed his family and that meant everything to him.  So, to "save face" he shoots them and then turns the gun on himself.  Being in the poorhouse is so unattractive.

Wow. I see how you judge him not and remember that we could be on his shoes. From his perspective that probably was reasonable. How far have things go, however, it is not a surprise.


Gina, you ramble pretty good.


Moises
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 02:53:29 PM by Moises »
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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 06:17:33 AM »

One man considers himself rich, yet has nothing [to keep permanently]; another man considers himself poor, yet has great [and indestructible] riches. (Proverbs 13:7)

So, one man can be rich (according to his surroundings) and consider himself poor, yet he can have great (spiritual) riches.
There is also so many spiritual poor people considering (and craving to be) rich, yet they have nothing spiritual.

The concept of being rich and poor is very relative.
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Samson

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 12:12:32 PM »

One man considers himself rich, yet has nothing [to keep permanently]; another man considers himself poor, yet has great [and indestructible] riches. (Proverbs 13:7)

So, one man can be rich (according to his surroundings) and consider himself poor, yet he can have great (spiritual) riches.
There is also so many spiritual poor people considering (and craving to be) rich, yet they have nothing spiritual.

The concept of being rich and poor is very relative.


Hey Moises,

I read your initial Post at the top. The part about Covetousness interested Me, because essentially that's the Sin and motivation behind all other Sins. Covetousness is a form of greed and often leads to other grievous things: Murder, Adultery, Theft, Lying, putting too much emphasis & time attempting to satisfy the desires(Greek-Epithumia) of the Flesh. Hence the Love of Money being the root of all Evil or Injurious Things. This Love of Money has it's basis in Coveting.

Of course the Greek Word Epithumia is a little tricky because it's not necessarily referring to wrong desires. Examples below!

Luk 22:15  And he said unto them, With desire(Greek-Epithumia) I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

2Ti 2:22  Flee also youthful lusts(Greek-Epithumia): but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

epithumia
ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

Same Greek word Epithumia is used for Jesus desiring to eat the Passover and Paul instructing Timothy to flee from Youthful lusts or Desires.

However Covetousness is often the motivating influence behind the desire to obtain Money. It's not the Money in itself, but other desires that are often fulfilled through the pursuit of Riches like Position, Power, Prominence and elevating ones Vanity. Just some examples that illustrate Covetousness.

I remember Ray being quoted as saying that an Atheist is capable of following the Ten Commandments, except One: Thy shall not Covet, thy Neighbors possessions, Wife, etc. That includes Coveting of any kind. Anyone can physically adhere to Nine of these Ten Commandments, but only God's Holy Spirit can remove the desire or lust of Coveting.

There is nothing righteous or spiritual in itself in being Poor, there are many a poor people who aren't spiritual and who Covet. However, often being Rich is an obstacle by way of the circumstances connected to being Rich towards obtaining Physical Riches, because the individual's Time and interest is consumed by His desire to get Rich, important, prominent, powerful and materially successful.

1Ti 6:6  But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7  For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8  And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9  But they that will be rich fall into TEMPTATION and a SNARE, and into many foolish and HURTFUL LUSTS, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10  For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and PIERCED themselves through with many sorrows.

SNARE: pagis
pag-ece'
From G4078; a trap (as fastened by a noose or notch); figuratively a trick or stratagem (temptation): - snare

EVIL: kakos
kak-os'
Apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically such; whereas G4190 properly REFERS TO EFFECTS), that is, (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious: - bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked.

ERRED OR SEDUCE: apoplanaō
ap-op-lan-ah'-o
From G575 and G4105; to lead astray (figuratively); passively to stray (from truth): - err, seduce.

1Ti 6:17  Charge them that are rich in this world(AION), that they BE NOT HIGHMINDED, nor trust in UNCERTAIN RICHES, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
1Ti 6:18  That they do good, that they be RICH IN GOOD WORKS, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal(AIONIAN) life.

HIGHMINDED: hupsēlophroneō
hoop-say-lo-fron-eh'-o
From a compound of G5308 and G5424; to be lofty in mind, THAT IS, ARROGANT: - be highminded.

CAPS FOR EMPHASIS ARE MINE.

Regarding Covetousness, read below !

Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and COVETOUSNESS, WHICH IS IDOLATRY:

COVETOUSNESS: pleonexia
pleh-on-ex-ee'-ah
From G4123; avarice, that is, (by implication) fraudulency, EXTORTION: - covetous (-ness) practices, GREEDINESS.

Covetousness is a form of Idolatry, figuratively speaking.

IDOLATRY: eidōlolatreia
i-do-lol-at-ri'-ah
From G1497 and G2999; image worship (LITERALLY OR FIGURATIVELY): - idolatry.

Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7  In the which ye also walked some time, WHEN YE LIVED IN THEM.

CAPS FOR EMPHASIS ARE MINE.

Interesting Thread, Samson.










« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 12:56:31 PM by Samson »
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Gina

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 12:22:53 PM »

Quote
Yeah people that consider themselves rich and superior are usually so busy buying unnecessary s***

Moises, you crack me UP!  ;D ;D ;D  You're on FIRE.

Ahh! Who would have ever guessed when we were back in the physical church that truthfully discussing these things would be so much more enjoyable than actually owning these things!

Yes, I judge him NOT!  My heart goes out to people like that.

I love it!  Yeah, I ramble pretty good!  When a person gets something of spiritual value out of these types of discussions, all Glory to God.  Thank you so much for this thread Moises.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 12:25:13 PM by Gina »
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Stacey

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 12:26:44 PM »

I enjoyed reading your thread Moises. Not trying to take away from what you said at all but what I gathered from it was this.

Frugality. On personal and public levels leads to contentment on many levels.

Paul was definitely a frugal person and one of our greatest examples.

Who is rich and who is poor and by whose or what measuring stick is the measurement taken?

By the worlds standard I would be considered in the extreme lower level of the middle class. Its a good thing I refuse to let the world decide for me where I fit in. God is our provider and we are surely blessed and no matter what condition we find our selves in there are always blessings to be counted to our benefit that far out way any monetary value and by default make each of us rich beyond measure.

Moises you said you've been on a lot of different levels even just to see what they were like. Be careful friend. One fella comes to mind considering this. He's the Fat to Fit dude. Google him for more info if you want to. He wanted to see what it was like to be fat so he deliberately ate to get fat. He was perfectly fit when he started and needed to know why fat people struggle so much to shed the pounds. Now that he reached the goal of getting fat he is trying to shed the pounds.  :) The pounds ain't coming off very easy.   

Gina, we live in America. There's no possible way to ever miss out on the super special deal when the sale never ends and another one will be out shortly!
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Stacey

Gina

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2012, 12:36:33 PM »

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Gina, we live in America. There's no possible way to ever miss out on the super special deal when the sale never ends and another one will be out shortly!

haha!!  Right!  But you wouldn't know it by the way people rush in to buy crap.  Not judging!  Been there, done that.
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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 04:09:00 PM »


Hi Samson.
Thanks for your contribution.

I can see how the word ''epithumia (a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).'' can get tricky. It reminds me how the word the word that is translated 'ambition' on 1Th 4:11 which is ''Philotimeomai (Strong's Number:5389 1.to be fond of honour, to be actuated by love of honour, from a love of honour to strive to bring something to pass, to be ambitious, to strive earnestly, make it one's aim.)''

1Th 4:11
and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you,


In both ''epithumia'' and ''Philotimeomai'' the words 'desire' something and 'craving' for something are there. Also we the ambition many times is used with negative connotations. However not on this verse. Actually that verse fits perfect on this tread and that is what we most be logging for while living physically.


Regarding the part on Ray's paper you where referring too, Here it is:

There was ONE commandment, however, that was of a spiritual nature. It had to do with the desires and inclination of the heart. It was the 10th commandment:

    "Neither shall you desire [covet] your neighbor’s wife… house… field… manservant… maidservant… ox… a@@… or any thing that is your neighbor’s" (Deut. 5:7-21).

However, was anyone ever stoned in ancient Israel for coveting any thing that belonged to his neighbor? No. Never. One could "covet" anything he wanted all day long, just so long as he didn't break any of the other nine commandments!

One could "covet" his neighbor’s wife, just as long as he didn’t commit adultery with her—for that he would be stoned to death.

One could "covet" his neighbor’s ox, just so long as he didn’t steal it—for that he would be stoned to death.

Oh "coveting" was a sin all right, but since it cannot be detected by man unless it eventuates into stealing or the like, no penalty was enforced on such an one. However, to Paul, it was this commandment that proved to him that his heart was not right with God even though he performed all the visible and outward duties of the law:

    "…for I had not known [Gk: ‘would not have known’] lust, except the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet" (Rom. 7:7).

So lusting and coveting that which is not legal, is a sin, but it carried no penalty in Ancient Israel. But before a man ever steals, or ever commits adultery with another man’s wife, he first covets, and that is a sin and the precursor to additional sins. But is it man's will that does the coveting? Can man's will, will NOT to covet? Is man's "will" the problem? No, no, it is NOT.
          (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html)
                             

'' But godliness with contentment is great gain. (1Ti 6:6) ''

Good you bring that one up. Contentment might be the safer final solution for the habitual problem of greed! 
(The only bad thing about talking about this things is that it is way more easy to talk about it than actually do it)

sincerely

Moises
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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 04:15:46 PM »

truthfully discussing these things would be so much more enjoyable than actually owning these things!

Yes, I judge him NOT!  My heart goes out to people like that.

Gina


Be able to discus this things is awesome, yet on a daily base I usually just carry them on with my self, because people usually get offended and it is so much again so many assuptions. Neither do I judge them.

:)

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moshe

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2012, 05:01:22 PM »

Frugality. On personal and public levels leads to contentment on many levels.
Paul was definitely a frugal person and one of our greatest examples.
Who is rich and who is poor and by whose or what measuring stick is the measurement taken?
Somebody once said:
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction."

''by whose or what measuring stick is the measurement taken?'' I guess to make our personal meassure must be responsibility of us and not from society at large (here, I am talking to the few whom are trying to live a piety live only).

By the worlds standard I would be considered in the extreme lower level of the middle class. Its a good thing I refuse to let the world decide for me where I fit in. God is our provider and we are surely blessed and no matter what condition we find our selves in there are always blessings to be counted to our benefit that far out way any monetary value and by default make each of us rich beyond measure.

Yes, God is our provider!

''By the worlds standard I would be considered in the extreme lower level of the middle class.''

According with scary world statistics, if you have clean water, a shelter, and nutritive food daily, you are not so on the extreme lower level of middle class. Maybe according to your city or country standard, yes. But yeah I agree, many deceptive standarts are very relative. 

Moises you said you've been on a lot of different levels even just to see what they were like. Be careful friend. One fella comes to mind considering this. He's the Fat to Fit dude. Google him for more info if you want to. He wanted to see what it was like to be fat so he deliberately ate to get fat. He was perfectly fit when he started and needed to know why fat people struggle so much to shed the pounds. Now that he reached the goal of getting fat he is trying to shed the pounds.  :) The pounds ain't coming off very easy.   

Stacey, those occasions happened a couple years ago, God took care of me and I would not put my self there anymore, however, thanks for your concern. My way of thought was nothing like 'let's do somethink stupid just to know what is like' it was like a personal test to overcome a personal fear and be able to understand a little better the ones whom are home-less (now I know better that we I can be able to understand and have piety of others by just thinking about it). About the ugly example I was compared with; getting fat just for the heck of it is a shame, (however, no one have a free-will.)

thanks for adding to the tread

sincerely

Moises
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Fester

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Re: ''just another tread about money''
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2012, 12:15:07 AM »

As an introductory note: I do believe that I can be able to back up all this information, it will be just a resume of things that have been going on through my ''young'' mind.

I wish you did back it up.

Quote from: Moises
Who knows, it might finish giving encorage to somebody.

Probably won’t finish giving encouragement but possibly will lend some.

Quote from: Moises
First I want to put down a couple unfair and unworthy questions that you might have heard around.

Okay so how are these questions which you are about to ‘put down’ ‘unfair and unworthy’?  Well, let’s read on and see.

 
Quote from: Moises
Because I think that we should not participate on this type of hypothetical and vane reasoning's:

You ‘think that we should not participate’ in this type of activity.  Okay now we have three items to watch for.  You will ‘put down’ and show these questions are ‘unfair and unworthy’ and that ‘we should not participate on this type of hypothetical and vane reasoning’s’.

Quote from: Moises
          ''If you had the power and money how would you run and fix the world, how would you address the problem of...   this... and that...?  ''

Hypothetical questions can be fun; plus gets one’s grey matter working; invokes thought and conversation, controversy and learning and can be quite humbling

Quote from: Moises
The truth is that a lot of money and worldly power will never bring us more chances for a more piety, peaceful and quiet life. There is no way our limited mind can have a better plan than Gods, He is the Creator and His masterpiece is perfect and it is still in process. And we are not to pretend to be gods.
 

Obviously our limited minds will never have a plan better than God’s.  But now you side step the issue and go on about gaining piety, a peaceful and quiet life.
 
But you really did not ‘put down’ and show that this question is ‘unfair and unworthy’ and that ‘we should not participate on this type of hypothetical and vane reasoning’s’.  Your's are the kind of statements politicians give.
     
Quote from: Moises
Also I have heard before:

          ''If everyone would think and do as you, now, imagine how the world would become? I don't like neither how things are now but this is how things and money work around here, so you better comply...''

If everyone thought the same as anyone in the world it would still be a messed up place (sin).  Yes there is a way ‘things’ and ‘money’ in the world work, and to live we must ‘comply’ and play the game.  Well, unless you want to be a broke, hungry, homeless, rebel or go live in the woods like Grizzly Adams. 

Quote from: Moises
However, on this life nobody had ever think exactly like me and nobody never will, so that argument should never apply.

True not everyone thinks like you or ever will so how does that make the thought provoking hypothetical question invalid?  Because the argument will never apply?  So we must remember any question about something which will never happen is not a valid question.  Okay I got the idea but am still not sure why not to ask.

 
Quote from: Moises
Also since God is in control and not any human freewill, all the wrong and evil we see today doesn't match with how things with humans will always work. Actually this is how all things really work: God being the potter and humans being the clay, there you have a real absolute.


Yes God is the Potter and we are the clay is a real absolute.  You say, ‘all the wrong and evil we see today doesn't match with how things with humans will always work’.  I think it matches 100% as with how things with humans work and always will work as we are vessels of sin.  Evil totally matches sinful human (flesh) behavior. 

Quote from: Moises
We don't need more money to start trying to live a piety live, it is more important to build our character than to accomplish material dreams (God's is giving an experience of evil to humanity to humble him, if He wanted to give everybody and experience of abundance and total bliss right now, many things would be different.)


You are correct but the comment is irrelevant to your original stated objectives.

Quote from: Moises
    Now, before keep on talking about money, again, what is money?
Money was only a medium of exchange for the increasingly complex transactions, it is a just a peace of paper that people in general give certain value to it, money is like little cage vouchers, money is a mental idea and we have been trained to respect it and even praise it.

A simplistic but true enough view.
 
Fester
 
 
 
Well I think you totally failed to ‘put down’ and show that these questions are ‘unfair and unworthy’ and that ‘we should not participate on this type of hypothetical and vane reasoning’s’. 
 
Your continued posts are full of holes as well.
 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:54:37 AM by Fester »
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"Christianity began as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When it went to Athens, it became a philosophy. When it went to Rome, it became an organization. When it went to Europe, it became a culture. When it came to America, it became a business."
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