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Author Topic: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?  (Read 14040 times)

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marrcus

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kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« on: February 02, 2012, 07:06:38 PM »

Does anyone want to talk about the Greek words "kolasis aionios" - typically (mis)translated as "eternal (aionios) punishment (kolasis)"?

I am satisfied that the translation of aionios in most Bibles as eternal/everlasting/forever was more a matter of 5th/6th century doctrinal preference and theology than an objective rendering of the word in English.

It seems (to me) that the adjective aionios and its noun aion are, nevertheless, hard words to translate in English - and it seems that perhaps we do not have a direct English word that means the same as aion/aionios. Perhaps the closest we can get is a word like "lifespan".

For what I can understand, an aion is:

(1) a period of time.

(2) the duration depends on the subject, i.e. in this case, kolasis, or "punishment".

I understand that every object can have its own particular aion.

The aion of a man is about three score and twenty years.

The aion of a housefly is much less, say 30 days.

The aion of a galaxy might be billions of years.

So the durational meaning of aion/aionios depends on the context.

This bit I get.

But what can "aionian punishment" mean?

What is the natural aion of punishment?

I would be tempted to say that the natural aion of a punishment is variable. The length of a punishment is generally connected to the severity of the crime.

This implies (to me) that every person will be punished according to their crimes (sins).

Thoughts, anyone?

What do you think the word aion means in connection with punishment?


« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:34:20 PM by marrcus »
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thetruth

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 10:13:44 PM »

Hello,marrcus
Hope this is of some help. God bless!

The root of "kolasis" means "cutting off," as in pruning a tree. One prunes a tree to make it PRODUCE MORE FRUIT, not to kill it!  The wicked are chastised (judged) for the period of Christ's reign and the Saints reign for the period of Christ's reign. Both periods are the same length--until their purpose has been accomplished.
God be with you,
Ray
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marrcus

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 10:42:01 PM »

Hello,marrcus
Hope this is of some help. God bless!

The root of "kolasis" means "cutting off," as in pruning a tree. One prunes a tree to make it PRODUCE MORE FRUIT, not to kill it!  The wicked are chastised (judged) for the period of Christ's reign and the Saints reign for the period of Christ's reign. Both periods are the same length--until their purpose has been accomplished.
God be with you,
Ray


Hi Ray,

I can go with that. Punishment is also a potential mistranslation and a better word might have been chastisement or pruning.
So what would be the aion inherent in the ideas of pruning or chastisement?

Oh, to get inside the head of the a first century Greek speaker - I am sure that to them, the meaning of kolasis aionios was quite obvious!!!

It is evident, however, from the universal salvation ideas of very early Christian theologians like Origen, that whatever kolasis aionios means, it CANNOT be "eternal punishment". Not in the sense we today understand the word eternal. Clearly he, and others like him, saw a very different meaning to kolasis aionios.






« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:44:16 PM by marrcus »
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thetruth

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 11:27:25 PM »

Hello, marrcus

So what would be the aion inherent in the ideas of pruning or chastisement?
969 days,12 hours,13 min,42 secs......LOL...jUST kidden my friend.I have know idea since a day can mean a thousand years.And to the best of my knowleadge which is limited. ONLY God knows the answer to this question.If i am understanding what your asking correctly?As only God knows as of now ..maybe thechrist=the elect will know then how long it will take to convert the unjust hearts! I am at the end of the line on my understanding in regards to how long the age of chastisement will be.So God bless marrcus look forward to future fellowship.
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Foxx

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 05:07:18 PM »

Hello,marrcus
Hope this is of some help. God bless!

The root of "kolasis" means "cutting off," as in pruning a tree. One prunes a tree to make it PRODUCE MORE FRUIT, not to kill it!  The wicked are chastised (judged) for the period of Christ's reign and the Saints reign for the period of Christ's reign. Both periods are the same length--until their purpose has been accomplished.
God be with you,
Ray


Hi Ray,

I can go with that. Punishment is also a potential mistranslation and a better word might have been chastisement or pruning.
So what would be the aion inherent in the ideas of pruning or chastisement?

Oh, to get inside the head of the a first century Greek speaker - I am sure that to them, the meaning of kolasis aionios was quite obvious!!!

It is evident, however, from the universal salvation ideas of very early Christian theologians like Origen, that whatever kolasis aionios means, it CANNOT be "eternal punishment". Not in the sense we today understand the word eternal. Clearly he, and others like him, saw a very different meaning to kolasis aionios.


yes the words punishment,torment and judgment are sort of used interchangeably in the English among those who support eternal damnation . in regards to the word “torment” it comes from the word “basamos” which is the Greek word for a Touchstone. For those who don’t know what a touchstone is exactly, it is a stone that is used to test the quality of a piece of gold. Jewelers still use them to this day.

They would rub the gold on the touchstone then apply an acid I believe to determine its worth. The words interrogate, torture, torment, etc all came from this word basamos. It is the same word used in Revelations and is used in parables that Jesus provided. A touchstone was a TEST to see the true worth of something. It had a purpose..not just mindless torture in hell forever. That is what people will go through…a test…
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 07:16:36 AM »

http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html

Try this one--especially the latter part.  Ray answers your base question, but not in a way you might expect.

I don't believe judgement is the exact equivelant of "punishment for our crimes" so I don't have any thoughts towards how long this "punishment" should take place.  Since judgement has a goal and a purpose, it will 'last as long' as is necessary to fulfill it.

As for kolasis, here's the only other time the word is used in the Greek NT:

1Jn 4:17-18  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

FEAR contains torment.  PERFECT LOVE casteth out fear, thus ending torment (kolasis).  There is no fear (with torment) in Love.  That's the goal, not "so many licks for this, so many for that".  It takes a lot to get to that point, and much of it is painful to our carnal selves, but the torment of not being like Christ (Perfect love, et al.) doesn't last forever.
       
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 07:44:36 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2012, 07:50:35 AM »

More from an email reply:

Dear Rod:

Thank you for your email and kind words. I am glad that you found at least some agreement with what I teach from Scripture and your own findings.

Actually I have had a New World Translation for forty-five years now.

However, let me say this (and I certainly hope this will not be the least bit offensive to you), I very seldom use the NWT. I think that I have quoted from it but two times in my papers on the bible-truths site. Although the Christian world as a whole despise the NWT, their own King James is very similar, with the one exception of most of mankind being NOT SAVED by "eternal annihilation" rather than "eternal torture." Either way, both teach that God will utterly fail in saving all of His children. This does not speak well for the most powerful and most loving Father in the universe!

The Watch Tower does, however, publish a book that I use ALL THE TIME. It is very helpful in MANY places. It is the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT. Do you have a copy? Have you not notice how DIFFERENT it is from the NWT? Maybe just one example will put you on the Rod to a whole new world of Scriptural Truth discovery.

Matt. 25:46, NWT:

"And these will depart into EVERLASTING CUTTING-OFF, but the righteous ones into EVERLASTING LIFE."

This translation is very similar to the KJV:

"And these shall go away unto EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into LIFE ETERNAL."

The only real different in the NWT's translation of the compound, "cutting- off" instead of "punishment."

Now then, let's check the Emphatic Diaglott:

"And these shall go forth to the AIONIAN CUTTNG OFF; but the righteous to AIONIAN LIFE."

This is a MUCH improvement over the King James and the NWT. The Greek word "aionios" or "aionion" never EVER means "everlasting" or "eternal." NEVER. For proof of this read the first ten pages of my letter to John Hagee in the paper "EXPOSING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT" on my site.

The Watch Tower's Diaglott has this word translated CORRECTLY--it is "aionian" or "eonian" or (if we must use a compound, "age-lasting" or "age- abiding").

But, although the Watch Tower's Diaglot has "eonian" it TOO, misses the mark by using "cutting-off" to translate the Greek word: "kolasis" which comes from "kolaza" which means "to CHASTISE." "Cutting off" is an aspect of this word, however, it is NOT it's primary meaning. It can carry the connotation of "cutting-off" (as in PRUNING A TREE), if the desired result is to IMPROVE rather than destroy or annihilate. This word is used only a couple of times in all the Greek Manuscripts. Here is the other place it is used:

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has TORMENT [Greek: kolasis]..." (I John 4:17).

Is John really telling us that "fear" causes "CUTTING OFF"?? That's absurd.

The proper translation of the word "kolasis" is neither "punishment" OR "cutting-off"--it means "CHASTENING OR CHASTISEMENT" -- to bring about correction, making something RIGHT -- RIGHTEOUSNESS: God's judgements (chastisements) bring about RIGHTEOUSNESS in the WICKED. That IS the result of God's Judgments. Just for curiosity's sake I checked the NWT translation of Isaiah 26:9 with regards to what happens when God really begins to send forth His JUDGMENTS into this earth:

"...because when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn" (NWT).

Here, even the King James is a better and more accurate translation:

"...for when Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD [all of them] WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (KGV).

YES THEY WILL. They will NOT be ETERNALLY annihilated, neither will they be ETERNALLY CUT-OFF.

There is a world of difference between the words "punish" and "chastise." Chastise carries to meaning of CORRECTING, MAKING RIGHT, ETC. Therefore, it can NEVER EVER BE EVERLASTING OR ETERNAL, as anything that is eternal NEVER fulfills its goal of "correcting or making right"!!

The reason most translations do not translate this verse in Matt. 25:46 correctly is not because it is that difficult to translate; it is not. It is because of the RELIGIOUS BIAS of the translators. And so the King James makes it appear that people will be "PUNISHED [tortured for eternity in fire) and the NWT make it appear as though it is "eternal," however, not eternal conscious suffering, but rather eternal cutting-off from God or literally, eternal annihilation. BOTH ARE DEAD WRONG!

This verse should be translated as follows:

"And these shall be coming away into CHASTENING EONIAN, yet the just into LIFE EONIAN."

And that is the meaning of the Greek words in this verse. It's just that theologians cannot then UNDERSTAND this verse. It doesn't fit the preconceived ideas of the Christians, nor does it fit the preconceived ideas of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The argument on both sides goes like this: How can we have "ETERNAL life" if it is the same period of time that the wicked are chastised, if that chastisement COMES TO AN END?

The answer is quite simple and clear, Rod, if we will but listen to the Scriptures carefully. The Scriptures NOWHERE promise believers "everlasting or eternal life." WHAT? That sounds like blasphemy AND HERESY, doesn't it?

What the Scriptures do promise believers is: (1) Aionian, eonian, or age- abiding, life, AND (2) IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION. Immortality has nothing to do with TIME. Immortality does not mean "everlasting" or "eternal" or any other word or combination of words denoting ENDLESS TIME. Immortality mean DEATH=LESS=NESS. Incapable of dying. NEVER to die. So it will be "everlasting," but the WORD DESCRIBING IT DOES NOT MEAN EVERLASTING.

And so the two statements of Matt. 25:46 are in perfect harmony with one another, even though NEITHER ONE IS SPEAKING OF ETERNAL OR ENDLESS TIME!

Jesus promised "eonian life" to those who "OVERCOME." They are to rule WITH Christ as the manifest SONS OF GOD (The BODY of Christ), who will be the "saviours" promised back in Hosea, that will be instrumental in brining God's judgments to all the inhabitants of this earth, both in the millenium and in the second resurrection.

This is just ONE verse of Scripture, Rod. But both the Christians and the Jehovah's Witnesses CARRY THIS ERROR FORWARD IN THEIR ENTIRE TRANSLATION OF THE SCRIPTURES! BOTH ARE DEAD WRONG. God IS THE SAVIOUR of the world, not the weak and wishful "potential" Saviour of the world. This is a TRUTH of GRAND PROPORTIONS, Rod, that you will have to come to grips with if you are to ever truly appreciate God and His Sovereign Power and Love.

GOD WILL NO MORE ANNIHILATE MOST OF HIS CHILDREN FOR ALL ETERNITY, THAN HE WOULD PUNISH OR TORTURE THEM IN FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!

After reading the ten pages I suggested above, get back with me on this, Rod. And, Yes, you may send me your paper when you are finished with it, and I will be happy to read it. I hope nothing I said in this email is offensive to you? Let me hear from you. Okay? Good!

God be with you,

Ray

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marrcus

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2012, 04:48:16 PM »

Wow. Great stuff. Thanks. :D
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Darroll

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2012, 05:01:42 PM »

Matthew 25:46 is also interesting in that the Greek aioonion (Englishman’s transliteration) is used twice. Once it is translated “eternal” (Kolosin aioonion: age [of] pruning) and then “everlasting” (aioonion Zooeen: age [of] life). I used the Englishman’s transliteration.  The age of pruning refers to the period when God prunes sin from mankind.
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marrcus

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2012, 06:20:44 PM »

I was surprised today to learn that the Roman Catholic Church endorses universal salvation.

"the doctrine of universal salvation (also known as Apokatastasis or Apocatastasis) has usually been considered through the centuries to be heterodox but has become orthodox. It was maintained by the Second Vatican Council and by Pope John Paul II and it is promoted in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church and in the post-Vatican II liturgy."
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Darroll

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 10:14:36 AM »

When I posted, I was working from memory instead of looking at the actual text. The transliteration should have been “kolasin,” which comes from κόλασις. Aioonion, as has been pointed out, comes from the adjective form αἰώνιος.
Those of you who use the Concordant have already understood that since they use the translation “eonian.” The Greek in No Way indicates an eternity. It speaks of a time-frame that has a limitation.
No single Hebrew word may be correctly translated “eternity!” Only one biblical Greek word may be translated “eternity.” That Greek word, aidios-ἀΐδιος is used only twice, in Romans 1:20 and in Jude 6.
The Hebrew word that is translated forever and other things of the same slant, ʿôlām-‏עוֹלָם‎, technically means “unknown.”
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Samson

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 10:44:32 AM »

When I posted, I was working from memory instead of looking at the actual text. The transliteration should have been “kolasin,” which comes from κόλασις. Aioonion, as has been pointed out, comes from the adjective form αἰώνιος.
Those of you who use the Concordant have already understood that since they use the translation “eonian.” The Greek in No Way indicates an eternity. It speaks of a time-frame that has a limitation.
No single Hebrew word may be correctly translated “eternity!” Only one biblical Greek word may be translated “eternity.” That Greek word, aidios-ἀΐδιος is used only twice, in Romans 1:20 and in Jude 6.
The Hebrew word that is translated forever and other things of the same slant, ʿôlām-‏עוֹלָם‎, technically means “unknown.”


Hi Darroll,

Actually, Aidios means "Imperceptible or Unseen" not Eternal as in Endless, I used to believe it meant Eternal until it was adequately explained by the Email response by Ray shown below in blue.

Dear Ken:  Oh really?  And who told you that?

The word translated "eternal" in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 6 is "aidion."  The "a" is a prefix meaning "un" or "no" or "not."  It is a negative just as in the word "hades" which Dr. Strong correctly informs us is made up of  "G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen"  UN-seen, or NOT-seen--IMperceptible.

Well, aidion is very close to being the same word and means "IMperceptible, and this is precisely what the context of these two Scriptural usages prove.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known [something perceivable] of God is manifest [made perceivable] in them; for God hath showed [made perceivable] it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible [IMperceivable] things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made [what is NOT perceivable, NOT seen, CAN be seen by things that ARE SEEN, namely "the THINGS that are made], even His eternal power [yes, "even His UNseen, NOT seen, IMperceptable power" can BE SEEN by things that CAN BE SEEN, namely "the things that are made] and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

There is the contextual proof of the word, plain and simple. Now Jude:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [Gk: 'aidion'] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 Once more, let's look at the context:  Notice that these angels are "reserved."  Here is the definition of "reserve"--"1. To keep back, as for FUTURE USE or for a special purpose" (American Heritage College Dictionary).  How can some that is "everlasting" as the King James suggests, be "kept back for FUTURE USE?"  That is nonsense! That is terrible translating.   Other translations use the words "to" and "for" in place of the King James "unto the judgment." In other words these restraining chains last only "till" "to" or "for" another day.  These chains are not "everlasting," but rather they are "imperceptible."  How does one "chain" a spirit being with "visible iron chains made with matter?"

Hope this helps your understanding. I have been answering this same question  on aiodion for years now.

God be with you,

Ray


At least some or perhaps more of the Universalist writers interpret Aidios or Aidion as Eternal, that was the understanding I had based on my previous studies, prior to joining this Site, mostly from Universalist Authors of the 1800's & 1900's.

Kind Regards, Samson.
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Gina

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 03:25:48 PM »

Quote
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [Gk: 'aidion'] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 Once more, let's look at the context:  Notice that these angels are "reserved."  Here is the definition of "reserve"--"1. To keep back, as for FUTURE USE or for a special purpose" (American Heritage College Dictionary).  How can some that is "everlasting" as the King James suggests, be "kept back for FUTURE USE?"  That is nonsense! That is terrible translating.   Other translations use the words "to" and "for" in place of the King James "unto the judgment." In other words these restraining chains last only "till" "to" or "for" another day.  These chains are not "everlasting," but rather they are "imperceptible."  How does one "chain" a spirit being with "visible iron chains made with matter?"

That's great.
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jccarterjr

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Re: kolasis aionios - what does it mean?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 10:50:05 AM »

In my opinion I think we would all be better, including myself, to remember something I heard a comedian say about being a Christian, "If you are do busy doing the dos, you don't have time to worry about the don'ts."

Love even your enemy as you love yourself. That was the last commandment Christ gave to us, to love each other, specially the sinners, you know all of us, I mean he died for them, so who am I to not love them?

I wouldn't focus too much on the consequences, I try to focus on the rewards I receive from God in this life, because I already know He took care of the next one.
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