Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"

[Duane]

I was reading about Jesus in John 8; and came to verse 42, which INSTANTLY reminded me of Ray's article debunking the Trinity.  Verse 42-- "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I p-r-o-c-e-e-d-e-d forth and came from God; nor have I c-o-m-e  o-u-t  of MYSELF, but He sent me".

Ray teaches that Jesus was GOD the Father's FIRST CREATION! So I wanted to see HOW it was handled by the translations.
Needing TWO WITNESSES,  the other "witness" was supplied by Revelation 3:14 (CLV) "and to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write:  Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and GOD'S C-R-E-A-T-I-V-E: ORIGINAL."
(God's "creative: ORIGINAL" would transverse to "God's ORIGINAL creation"--- meaning JESUS!)

So how did the KJV, NIV, CLV translate the SAME verse?

(KJV) "...beginning of the creation of God"   (Okay)
(NIV)"...the ruler of God's creation"  (huh?) 
(CLV)"...for OUT OF GOD I came forth..  (perfectly clear)

My topic of discussion surrounds HOW fundamentals take HEATED UMBRAGE of the notion that Jesus was CREATED by His Father!  (surprise?--the father created the son??) INSISTING that Jesus (of the Trinity)  ALWAYS WAS "PART of God" -- so NEVER created!  Always was!!

The translations CLV--out of God I came forth --is implying a "birth" or "creation" from WITHIN the Father.
Such as I would say "out of my Mother, Ruth Gevert, I "came forth"--.
BUT the NIV would say of me "Duane was ruler of his families creation"!
      the KJV would say of me "Duane was the beginning of the creation of Ruth"  (literally accurate)

The confusion confirms my POST titled:  "The Bible clearly says??"  Now anyone reading the KJV would not necessarily
pause to think that the Bible was stating that "Jesus WAS the FIRST CREATION OF GOD" but would read "right over it" thinking "yes, Jesus did create the world and managed it in Eden" and never "get" that it was JESUS that was CREATED!

Anyone reading the NIV wouldn't "have a clue" about Jesus's ORIGIN at all!  Jesus was "just a ruler of God's creation"!

So NEVER wonder WHY we "B-T'ers" get severely criticized for our Biblical viewpoints BECAUSE even though Ray's observation and research of the un-Trinity was ACCURATE and "right on the money" the translations used by "fundamentalists" sure DIDN'T help THEIR understanding at all--it just made US hated and "heretics" for believing Ray--
and ORIGINAL GREEK TRANSLATION (CLV)!  Sad---comments?

[santgem]

Greetings!

Jesus is eternal when God is alone...........

[Kat]

Santgem, I do not understand your comment. When is Jesus ever alone?

John 8:16  And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Farlsborough]

It's funny (and it's not an answer to your question, sorry) but...

I am less and less of the opinion that belief in the trinity (or not) matters at all! I see what Ray says about it. I see what orthodox theologians say about it. I flip between the two 

Orthodoxy says that the Father, the Spirit and Jesus are eternally distinct and equal.

Ray says that the Father created the Son, nevertheless they are ONE, and the spirit (if I have got this right) is essentially the Father's power and outworking in the world.

They both believe "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." They both encourage obedience and worship to God (Father and Son) and, presumably, being open and welcoming to the works of the Spirit/spirit (even if you only believe this is the spiritual force of the Father).

It isn't idolatry to worship or bow before Christ. It's a good idea to pray to be filled with God's spirit.

I'm sorry if this is heresy on here (seen as you guys are heretics in the eyes of many, does that make it double heresy, like double jeopardy?  ), but of all the things that really DO make a difference to how we relate to God and to others (eternal hell, most of all, but also free will), I cannot bring myself to get worked up about it. God is divinely reasonable. Can you imagine Him adding to your "aeonian chastisement" simply because you intellectually assented to the belief in Christ's eternal existence rather than original creation? I can't. I think it will be more like, "...oh! That's how it is. Thanks."

And can you be a trinitarian and still enter the kingdom of God? I suspect you can.

[John from Kentucky]

There is One God.

There are not three gods.

There are not two gods (a father god and a Jesus god).

One God.

The Father and Jesus together are One God. 1 Cor. 8:6  They are not separate..

Jesus was not created.  He came forth from God.  Jesus was the Creator.

Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. Col 1:15

The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God.

But as Paul said, not everyone knows this.  But everyone will know the True God at their appointed time.

[jojoross]

What about this:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God (the Father).

and...

Col 1:15 Who (Christ) is the image (not God but the image) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Seems like this verse is saying God the Father is ahead of Christ and that Christ is firstborn of every creature?

I always get confused with these verses...


Gods Peace,
Jordan

[Kat]

Hi Farlaborough,

Well the thing is what they teach about the Trinity is not true, there is not 3 equal being in the Godhead. No matter how insignificant this may sound to you this inaccuracy just leads to confusion and builds a false understanding of who/what God is. That is not good! And there is going to be accountability for that.

Mat 12:36  But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

But everybody will not be held to the same degree of punishment/stripes, it varies from person to person according to the intention in their heart in a matter.

Now another thing, Christ clearly stated that His Father is greater.

John 14:28  You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (2nd witness John 10:29)

But then there is the Scripture where it's stated that Christ is equal to God...

Php 2:6  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, (NKJV)

Notice it is "equal to God," this is likely the Godly divinity that gave Him a spiritual existence...

G2316 theos: a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

He certainly was equal to the Father in divinity, but as the next verse states, until He became flesh and "emptied Himself" of that divinity that made Him a Spirit Being, so then He could die.

Php 2:7  but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; (ASV)

He knew and stated that the Father was greater than He was, so there is no trinity or a Bitheism either, which is 2 distinct Gods. The Father and Son are one, this does not mean 2 in totally united, but as in connected, inseparable.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.
John 10:38  ...believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

John 14:7  "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

It's funny (and it's not an answer to your question, sorry) but...

I am less and less of the opinion that belief in the trinity (or not) matters at all! I see what Ray says about it. I see what orthodox theologians say about it. I flip between the two 

Orthodoxy says that the Father, the Spirit and Jesus are eternally distinct and equal.

Ray says that the Father created the Son, nevertheless they are ONE, and the spirit (if I have got this right) is essentially the Father's power and outworking in the world.

They both believe "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." They both encourage obedience and worship to God (Father and Son) and, presumably, being open and welcoming to the works of the Spirit/spirit (even if you only believe this is the spiritual force of the Father).

It isn't idolatry to worship or bow before Christ. It's a good idea to pray to be filled with God's spirit.

I'm sorry if this is heresy on here (seen as you guys are heretics in the eyes of many, does that make it double heresy, like double jeopardy?  ), but of all the things that really DO make a difference to how we relate to God and to others (eternal hell, most of all, but also free will), I cannot bring myself to get worked up about it. God is divinely reasonable. Can you imagine Him adding to your "aeonian chastisement" simply because you intellectually assented to the belief in Christ's eternal existence rather than original creation? I can't. I think it will be more like, "...oh! That's how it is. Thanks."

And can you be a trinitarian and still enter the kingdom of God? I suspect you can.

I won't claim to take responsibility for who will be in the kingdom.  That isn't my call and my opinion is not required by the One who made these decisions.

That said, "trinitarianism" is not on the surface and by itself the most evil way of looking at God.  Few of us talk about the real meat and truth of what Ray was saying...and it's not so much a hypothetical or theological truth about GOD, but about how WE fit in there.  The very title of the article:  Is God a Closed Trinity or an Expanding Family.  That ought to tell us what was most in Ray's mind when he wrote and had it posted on B-T.

It is not just about refuting trinitariansim, though it does do that.  It isn't even all about helping us grow to a better understanding of the relationship of Father and Son which started this whole shebang.  Though it endeavors to do that as well.  It's about 'relating' us to this Expanding Family. 

The doctrine of 'Trinitarianism' never lets US into a family, but keeps us as 'subjects'.  That's not what God has planned for us.  It's ALL about family.  Each in their own turn.

Jesus is FIRST among MANY BRETHREN.  The entirety of the Scripture is 'about' "Let us be making mankind into Our image".  That culminates (but doesn't end) with God being all in all."     

[lareli]

I would say that I relate to what Farlsborough said.. In my mind I would want to know more about how to do right instead of how to be right.

Scripture says we can know all the right answers and have all the mysteries of God known to us but still be nothing. We can know all this stuff and still miss the point.

The different things people believe about the trinity don't matter that much to me because either way it wouldn't change what God said I'm supposed to be doing.

Seek mercy, love justice, walk humbly with your God. Love your enemies. Be at peace with all men so long as it depends on you. Treat others as more important than yourself. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love God with all your strength.

I believe what Kat said about believing in the wrong thing leading to confusion... But I think believing in the wrong thing is different than acknowledging that you don't know the answer. There's lots of things that I would put in the "I don't know" box, the trinity being one of them. None of these things would change what it is I'm supposed to be doing though.

[rick]

In the end, it's about having an accurate knowledge of God and ourselves. For those who are being call now are learning both who God is and who they are and why God made His creation in spiritual weakness.

For those who God calls not, does it matter what they believe ?  The day will come when no man shall say know the Lord for the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth.

Everyone will have an accurate knowledge of God and learn to do righteousness in the end.


And you the reader have no say...............you will be saved because its God's ( Will ) that ( All ) men be saved , this also includes ( All ) women too.

All men plus all women equals everyone.   

[lilitalienboi16]

Is there a verse that explicitly states Jesus was created?

I know there is the verse that states He is the first born of the creation but that doesn't necessarily mean He was created. Only that He is born first much like we must be BORN AGAIN to enter the kingdom.

Also, being the beginning of the creation of God still doesn't imply you are created.

I do believe Christ came out of the Father and has a beginning, what I'm trying to understand is if there is a difference between coming out of God and being created by God.

I think coming out of God would imply that you were always a part of God were as being created by God, you are outside and not God yet but will be incorporated into God later.

I'm just kind of rambling, feel free to chime in. Thought I'd give this whole thread a shot

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Here are a few places Ray spoke on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.msg99627.html#msg99627 ---------

If Jesus were 'just a man' why did He need to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of God at all? Why couldn't He be JUST a normal Jewish boy born to a normal Jewish mother AND FATHER? Why? Why did He need to be more than 'just a man?' Why did He need to be a SPECIAL DIVINE MAN?

If Jesus Christ were nothing but a human being He did not have to be conceived by God, He did not have to empty Himself, He did not have to be made lower than an angel so He could die.  All men die. Just pay attention to the words.

Mr. Buzzard has a footnote on page 191 where he makes a comment from a dictionary about Revelation 3:14 where it says Jesus Christ is "the beginning of the creation of God." Concordant translates it "God's Creative Original." Now that is a profound Scripture, I mean that's one of those really profound Scripture. That is not a false translation or anything.

Rev 3:14  ...write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus Christ the "beginning of the creation of God." He is "the beginning."

Col 1:16  for in Him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and unto Him;

He is the beginning and the beginner, all things were created through Him.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12075.0.html ------------------------

Look at I Cor. 8:6 again.  Notice that it does not say, "But to us there is but one God, the Father." (Period).  Nor does it say, "One Lord Jesus Christ." (Period).  There is more to consider.  Is this verse saying that "God the
Father" is the ONLY God," and that Jesus, therefore cannot also be "God?" 

For sure Jesus can't be HIS OWN FATHER, but can Jesus also be "the ONE God?"  Look at that first statement again, as it IS in the Scripture as I will re-emphasize the words to make this one point:  "But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS."  There is only One God, the Father,  OUT OF Whom ALL IS" (Concordant Literal New Testament and The Emphatic Diaglott). 

Then concerning Jesus we read:  "One Lord Jesus Christ, BY Whom are all things." "Of" and "by" are two different words--"of" is applied to the Father, where as "by" is applied to the Son.  Actually the word "by" is better translated "through," but that doesn't change the fact that they are different and are applied to different actions. (See Rotherham's emphasized Bible, The Emphatic Diaglott, and The Concordant Literal New Testament for verification of the word "through"). 

All creation is "OF" God the Father, but since Jesus was also created, not all creation is OF Jesus. But the act of creation is attributed to Jesus (See I Collosians, etc.), hence it is "through" Jesus that all the things of creation
are brought into existence by or "through" Jesus Christ.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27962.html#msg27962 ------

John 13:3  "and that HE CAME FROM GOD"... that's where Jesus came from, GOD. Not from the Godhead, not from the Trinity, FROM GOD.

John 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD.  (Just like Eve came out from Adam)
v. 28  I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and have come into the world.

1 John 4:9  In this the love of God was revealed in us, because GOD SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON into the world that we might live through Him.

v. 14  And we have seen and testify that THE FATHER SENT THE SON to be the Savior of the world.

Heb 1:2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom HE HAS APPOINTED heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,

If Jesus Christ was part of a triune god, a trinity, then nobody's appointed anybody, nobody is sending anybody.  There is not one greater authority in a perfect equilateral triangle.  But Christ said, My Father is greater than I, (John 14:28).

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with?  Jesus Christ, right?  The Word, that's what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.

In Gen. 1:1 it says, "In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth"

We read in 1 Cor 15:20  But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.

That Jesus Christ "became the Firstfruit of those who slept."  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST.

Where did Jesus come from:  John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.

Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14.  Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all.  So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God.  But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Thank you Kat,

So it seems like the only place that really puts the word CREATE and Jesus together, as in He is created by God, is in Revelations 3:14?

Look at the Young's translation for this however;

(RYLT-NT)  'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things says the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

Here is the ISV

(ISV) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this: "

If everything is out of the Father and through Jesus, then these translations make sense in light of that concept. Though I don't know how I feel about saying Christ is the originator as we know the Father to be so. However, young's is interesting.

My whole curiousity with Christ being created by the Father has nothing to do with whether He came forth from the Father and existed before He became man. I know that He did come forth from the Father and existed before He emptied Himself of His devinity.

My curiousity is with the word CREATE vs BRING FORTH or CAME OUT OF. God CREATED the heaven's and the earth, He didn't BRING FORTH these things out of Himself. As ray put, **there are two words, creating' and 'forming'.  One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed. ** Thank you dave for the correction!

So I was wondering, does the same apply to Christ? Was Christ CREATED or was he MADE from the Father? As in the Father took a piece of Himself and therefor it would really make sense that Christ is God, that He and the Father are one but that the Father is GREATER than He. Christ was never created then, in that sense, but He does have a beginning and He did come forth from the Father.

Does that make sense what I'm saying? That's why I wanted to find a verse that really NAILED the "Christ was 'CREATED' part."

Feel free to contribute or refute me or whatever. I'm not trying to teach, just trying to come to a better understanding of all this. I forget things sometimes so maybe I'm forgetting a verse here that would completely dismantle my little idea.

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

Ah, Alex.  But He DID bring forth the heavens and the earth out of Himself.

The different words in Genesis relate to 'creating' and 'forming'.  One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed.  That's a poor 'explanation', but I am having significant problems typing into web-forms at the moment.   

[lilitalienboi16]

Ah, Alex.  But He DID bring forth the heavens and the earth out of Himself.

The different words in Genesis relate to 'creating' and 'forming'.  One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed.  That's a poor 'explanation', but I am having significant problems typing into web-forms at the moment.   

Oh yes, thank you dave for the correction! Let me make that change hehe.

Then I suppose if this is true there is no difference between creating and bringing forth. My idea still holds merit as now the two words are inclusive rather than exclusive to one another, right? lol

[Kat]

Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.

v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.

v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19  For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...

John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

mercy peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures that God has given us called the Bible where anything was ever created before the Word.
There are many scriptures in the Old, and New Testaments that speak of God sending the Word, or the Word of God came to so and so.
God brought forth his creative Spiritual Word who knows how long ago? And then the Spiritual Word was made flesh a little over two thousand years ago that we all know now as The Lord Jesus Christ.

Joel

[Farlsborough]

It is not just about refuting trinitariansim, though it does do that.  It isn't even all about helping us grow to a better understanding of the relationship of Father and Son which started this whole shebang.  Though it endeavors to do that as well.  It's about 'relating' us to this Expanding Family. 

The doctrine of 'Trinitarianism' never lets US into a family, but keeps us as 'subjects'.  That's not what God has planned for us.  It's ALL about family.  Each in their own turn.

Jesus is FIRST among MANY BRETHREN.  The entirety of the Scripture is 'about' "Let us be making mankind into Our image".  That culminates (but doesn't end) with God being all in all."     

So Dave, how is what you believe different from A) the Mormons who believe we will (or can) be Gods ourselves eventually, or B) Hindus who's aim is ultimately to be obliterated/joined into God in one big swirling spiritual unity? Do you believe we will be literally the same beings as Christ, with the only difference being the spiritual medal or "brownie points" He got for volunteering to be the saviour of the world?

[santgem]

Santgem, I do not understand your comment. When is Jesus ever alone?

John 8:16  And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hello Kat,
Greetings!

When there is nothing except God, Jesus is eternal.
When there is nothing except God, that God is the "I AM"
When there is nothing except God, the Word was with God
When there is nothing except God, the Word was God.


I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last. Rev 22:13

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;this one was in the beginning with God; Jhn 1:1-2


How is it that both God the Father and Jesus be the First and the Last, because Jesus is God, and Jesus is the "I AM" and Jesus is the Word.



How come that Jesus is eternal, He is eternal when Jesus was with God, when He was the Word with God, when there was nothing except God.


who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages, 2Ti 1:9

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.Tit 1:2-4

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.Jde 1:25

In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --Gen 1:1


Now the misunderstanding(confusion) comes out when.............

The Word with God comes out from (God)Father

for the Father himself doth love you, because me ye have loved, and ye have believed that I from God came forth;I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'Jhn 16:27-28


When in a certain situation say certain time that the "WORD" comes out from God, that "Word" has now It's beginning, that is the beginning when the Word with God comes out from God.
There is now a so called Father and Son because the Father begotten the Son. That God which is alone before becomes the Father to a Son. The Father is God and also the Son is God. They are both God. The Son now has a beginning when He comes out from the Father. The Father is eternal, the Word is eternal when there is still nothing except God.

When the Word becomes a man and when the Word comes out from the Father, then you can now explain very well these passages;


1Co 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God (the Father).

Col 1:15 Who (Christ) is the image (not God but the image) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

[lilitalienboi16]

Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.

v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.

v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19  For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...

John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

mercy peace and love
Kat

Very interesting Kat. Thank you.

I am in agreement that Christ was brought forth from the Father, though it's interesting to me JOHNFROMKENTUCKY in his post stated that Jesus was NOT created. Perhaps BROUGHT FORTH, though it means the same as CREATED, is more accurate in that this is how the scriptures describe Jesus' coming into existence? John your input would be welcome here.

Your final statement was very enlightening to me. I found this particularly helpful in my understanding;


"The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not."

I think it goes nicely with what John also said; "The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God."

Very interesting to see how this discussion has evolved over time. I appreciate the clarifications. I think I am in agreement with you guys now.

God bless,
Alex