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Author Topic: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"  (Read 18904 times)

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2014, 08:20:57 PM »

Farlsborough.  God is a family.  The word "god" is a title (Elohim in Hebrew, Theos in Greek).  It is nobody's name, unless some hippy named their kid God.   

Jesus said in teaching the disciples, "Joh 14:19-20  Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.  At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

We have their witness that after the world saw Him no more, the disciples did.  WE "see" Him by faith.  WE are in this relationship.  We are in this family.

Presently, we are in it by the Spirit of adoption, but when we are 'born from above', we will be the sons and daughters of God.  We will be in the "GOD FAMILY"---the FATHER"S FAMILY, by name.

Now...I don't know what Mormons believe.  But I believe the Father in the God Family is creating more sons and daughters.  Sons and daughters are family.  What else does it describe?

Do we get the 'title'?  Could be we already have it.  There are many 'gods' and many 'lords'.  Some of them don't exist, and others are gods unto themselves.  I don't ascribe ANY "supernatural" (or pseudo-spiritual) attributes to the TITLE.  See Psalms 82.

Continuing, I don't even know what a big swirling spiritual unity is.   :D  No, I don't believe we will be 'obliterated' and joined into any such thing.  I DO believe we will be LIKE CHRIST.  That's what Scripture says.  Whatever He was is what we will be 'like' NEXT.  Was He 'obliterated'?  No, He was given all power in Heaven and on Earth.  Did he do anything, say anything, accomplish anything apart from what the Father gave Him to do, say, and accomplish?  No, by His own mouth. 

He is the FIRST to die and be raised to immortality.  He will not be the last. 

We may can speculate and have faith with some 'safety' and 'conviction' on what comes NEXT, (Jesus did walk among men after HIS resurrection).  But there are more ages to follow!  Paul had a vision of the 'seventh heaven' and said it was either unwise, inexpedient or illegal/unlawful to utter it (the translators disagree).  Eye has not seen, neither has ear heard, neither has it entered into the MIND (imagination?) of man what glories await.  For that reason ALONE, I can't 'believe' as the Mormons or the Hindus believe.  If it can be described, it is not what Paul 'saw'.

Add to that, that the INCREASE of His Government shall know no end.  Not just His government, but the INCREASE of it will not end.

I have a hard enough time with the christian, trinitarian (and unitarian too) 'heaven'.   ;D  I'm pretty dang sure he didn't see THAT.

   

 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 08:35:25 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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lareli

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2014, 03:10:45 PM »

Farlsborough, Dave

Speaking of Mormons, Hindus etc. does God call people to other religions and then choose people from other religions? Or is the choosing only from those called into the Christian church?

Does God choose His elect from among Mormons, Hindus, also?
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theophilus

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2014, 03:13:27 PM »


Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.

v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.

v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19  For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...

John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

mercy peace and love
Kat

Very interesting Kat. Thank you.

I am in agreement that Christ was brought forth from the Father, though it's interesting to me JOHNFROMKENTUCKY in his post stated that Jesus was NOT created. Perhaps BROUGHT FORTH, though it means the same as CREATED, is more accurate in that this is how the scriptures describe Jesus' coming into existence? John your input would be welcome here.

Your final statement was very enlightening to me. I found this particularly helpful in my understanding;


"The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not."

I think it goes nicely with what John also said; "The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God."

Very interesting to see how this discussion has evolved over time. I appreciate the clarifications. I think I am in agreement with you guys now.

God bless,
Alex


I take exception with the phrase "The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not."

Our Lord Jesus revealed that He CAME FORTH "FROM" the Father; not that He CAME FORTH "OF" the Father as the above phrase states. Maybe I am misunderstanding these prepositions.
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theophilus

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2014, 03:17:54 PM »

Great point Dave!!!  :) :) :)

A cookie for you!  ;) ;) ;)

I love it!
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2014, 06:57:12 PM »

God is not just a title.  God is not a family.

God is One.  God is unique.  God is special.

How do I know this?  The Scriptures.

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.
  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.
  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.
  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22

Those who have ears, let them hear.
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2014, 07:41:32 PM »

Santgem, if you consider that the Son was "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) then He cannot be eternal, as eternity does not have a beginning. The Son is what God brought forth at the beginning/first of this creation, also He is the Alpha of this creation, the Son is all about this creation.

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

The eternal God brought the Son forth/out and by that became the Father and the Son was not with the Father before that or God would not have needed to bring Him forth. Now before/beyond this creation, I have no idea what the Father is/has, but I have no doubt it is very very much more than just this. The Son is for this creation and He was brought forth for that purpose.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2014, 09:23:14 PM »

God is not just a title.  God is not a family.

God is One.  God is unique.  God is special.

How do I know this?  The Scriptures.

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.
  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.
  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.
  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22

Those who have ears, let them hear.

Well I'll tell you what, These pieces of scripture have never made more sense than now!

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?" ....  "there is none like me."(46:9)
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2014, 11:01:42 PM »

John, that is the God I know and worship.  I do not claim to BE Him.  He has a name, and it's not mine.  His NAME applies to Him, and the attributes of His Name to Him alone.  Our God is the Most High.  There is none like Him, and none beside Him.

No, GOD is not JUST a title.  The word "god", however, IS a title.  It's an English word.  I knew it was an English word many years ago, but I didn't know it was a 'title' and not a 'name' until Ray Smith taught me.   It is NOT WRONG to refer to a person by his title.  It's just wrong to think that's his name.

From the Enigma of God paper.

JESUS IS JEHOVAH - For that is His NAME!

Holy Father, You have given Me Your Name; now protect them by the power of Your Name so that they will be united just as We are. (New Living Translation - 2007).

Holy Father, keep them in Your Name, which You Have given Me, that they may be one, even as we are one. (English Standard Version -2001).

Holy Father, keep them in Your Name, the Name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. (American Standard Bible),

Holy Father, keep them in Your Name - that Name which You have given Me, so that they shall be one, just as We are. (Aramaic Bible in Plain English).

Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of Your Name, the Name that You gave Me, so that their unity may be like Ours. (God's Word Translation - 1995)

Holy Father, keep them in Thy Name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one as We. (Darby Bible Translation.

Holy Father, keep them true to Thy Name-the Name which Thou hast given Me to bear-that they may be one, even as We are. (Weymouth New Testament).

Holy Father, keep them through Your Name which You have given Me. that they may be one, even as We are. (New World English Bible)

Holy Father, protect them in Your Name, which You have given Me. (The New Testament According to the Eastern Texts By George M. Lamsa)

Holy Father, keep them in Your Name that You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. (The New Testament Bible for Catholics)

Holy Father, keep them by the power of Thy Name which Thou hast given Me. (James Moffatt, A New Translation)

I have given them the honour that You gave Me, that they may be one, as we are one. (The New Testament in Modern English By J. B. Phillips)

Holy Father, watch over them on account of Your Own Name which You have given Me, in order that they may be one just as we are. (New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania-THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES).

Holy Father, protect them in Your Name that You have given Me, so that they may be one, as we are one. (New Revised Standard Version)

Holy Father, protect them by the power of Your Name-the Name You gave to Me - so that they may be one as We are one. (Holy Bible New International Version).


Will nobody EVER be 'like' Him?  (PLEASE note the 'marks')

1Jn 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

or another translation:

1Jn 3:1  See what manner of love the Father has given us, that we may be called children of God. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it was not yet revealed what we shall be. But we know that if He is revealed, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3  And everyone having this hope on Him purifies himself even as that One is pure.


We can 'speculate' until the cows turn blue just how much and in what ways we will be 'like' him.  John was rather clear in the rest of that 'chapter', but that is not the end of Scripture.  For the record:  I do not expect I'll EVER be other than a man and a member of 'man-kind'.  But a man 'formed' in the image of God and Conformed to the image of His Son.

And if that's not 'family', I don't know what is.   


 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 12:33:39 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2014, 11:05:23 PM »


Theophilus, the meaning of 'from' as a preposition is - indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts. The meaning of 'of' as a preposition is - expressing the relationship between a part and a whole. indicating an association between two entities, typically one of belonging.

Now in the phrase where Jesus stated "I came forth from the Father" I believe He is saying where or from Whom He received His existence, not that He is expressing that He came from as in separating from Him. That's what I believe...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Joel

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2014, 02:48:04 AM »

These scriptures came to mind.
Ephesians 3:14-15
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Joel
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santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2014, 04:04:40 AM »

Santgem, if you consider that the Son was "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) then He cannot be eternal, as eternity does not have a beginning. The Son is what God brought forth at the beginning/first of this creation, also He is the Alpha of this creation, the Son is all about this creation.

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

The eternal God brought the Son forth/out and by that became the Father and the Son was not with the Father before that or God would not have needed to bring Him forth. Now before/beyond this creation, I have no idea what the Father is/has, but I have no doubt it is very very much more than just this. The Son is for this creation and He was brought forth for that purpose.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,
Greetings!

The Father is not eternal and the Son is not eternal but God is eternal.

The Father and the Son had their existence when God became Father to a Son.

Both the Father and the Son are God. The Word is with God and the Word is God.

Before there was no Father and a Son that so called "Son" was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God.

The Son is eternal when there was nothing except God because before he became a Son, He is the WORD with God and the WORD is GOD and God is eternal.



for the Father himself doth love you, because me ye have loved, and ye have believed that I from God came forth;I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'Jhn 16:27-28

God was called "Father" when the Son comes out from God. The Son is that Word with God. When there was nothing except God there was no Father and a Son, the Father and a Son had their existence when God became Father to a Son but before that it is only God.

You say the the Son cannot be eternal. the Son cannot be eternal when he comes out from the Father, but when He was still the Word with God He is eternal. The Word is the "I AM" and the Word is the Son who dwells among us and the Word is God.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;this one was in the beginning with God; Jhn 1:1-2

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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2014, 11:15:07 AM »


Okay Santgem, I see what you are saying, I just don't see it that way. This physical creation was made in the way that it is, and we are made to look as we do and to use speech as a means to communicate. We were also made with a psyche that needs a God and He would need to be very similar to what we are for us to accept (which I do not believe the Father is). So He first brought forth the Word, God, the Son and we can relate to Him as He has an image and has a like manner of speech like us.

But I also see that this as a unique creation... I don't believe there is something else like this world that would need the Word before He was brought forth, so He purpose is just for this creation. So God determined to bring this creation into existence, He also determined that we would need a God that we relate to, and so He first brought forth the Son and from His beginning He had an image and a voice 'like' what we would have. I believe the way He did this, was to bring forth/create/product the Son that was another part/extension of Himself, then He used this Son-God, to do everything concerning this creation. That's how I see it...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 05:27:22 PM by Kat »
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indianabob

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2014, 01:43:16 AM »



Hi folks,
This is a once over lightly of the idea that Jesus was the logos of YHVH from eternity past. I've read the evidence as presented and still cannot see it or agree that it makes sense to this old man.

Genesis says "in the beginning YHVH ....
John 1:1 says "in the beginning was the logos and the logos was with YHVH and the logos was YHVH.

To me that says that "the logos of YHVH was YHVH and YHVH was the logos". In other words these two designations are one and the same. One being the speaker and the other being the thought spoken and expressed by that self same speaker. Not another person.

There is nothing here about Lord Jesus; not yet!

2. Much has been said about the word god in English scripture.
The word god means a lot more than the original creator of all.
In the O.T., N. T. god can mean a human lord or master e.g.

So we have to check each and every time to see from which of many words "god" was translated. Same concern with LORD and Lord and lord which are three ways of spelling the designation of a superior being whether they be GOD, angel or flesh and blood.

The English or KJV seems to use the standard that LORD refers to Father God [YHVH] and Lord refers to the SON of Father God the man Jesus or Lord Jesus. see below...

King James Bible
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
= = =
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Lord Jehovah said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
= = =
American Standard Version
Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine thine enemies thy footstool.

Young's Literal Translation
A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
= = =

In all the above instances YHVH is a separate name from Lord Jesus.
AND there does not seem to be an indication that Jesus was the logos of YHVH prior to Jesus conception in Mary his mother.

Question:
If the word or logos of YHVH, Father God, was always the power manifested in the O. T. in the Pillar of Cloud, in the Pillar of fire, in the Burning bush and even in Eden the Garden of God speaking with Adam and Eve. Then why was it necessary to believe or imagine that the MAN Jesus was the one who did all those miraculous deeds for Father YHVH GOD? Why not another manifestation of YHVH or Father GOD through the agency of HIS logos.
After all when an angel or another manifestation of GOD appears to humans it is to be considered GOD, since it is GOD's appointed agent.

Isn't it even more scriptural to understand that the logos or the word expressed of YHVH became flesh for the first time in Lord Jesus, at Jesus' conception and not before?

Yes of course it is the same "LOGOS" working in Jesus during his life on the earth as mortal man. Yes the man Jesus is now, since his ascension, the living representative of YHVH and having full authority to act for YHVH in all things, because Jesus is now the embodiment of the word (logos) of YHVH.

We could also note that when we who are to be the very body of Lord Jesus in the better resurrection, we will be just like him since we will see him as he is in his, Jesus' immortal-spiritual state.

So once again I must ask; why is it necessary to believe that Jesus the man has in some spiritual form always consciously existed along side the Father as the Father's word or "logos"?

Scripture teaches that Lord Jesus was known to Father God from the beginning. Couldn't that just mean that in the mind of God a special man was planned from the very beginning? A man to be kept perfect for the righteous purpose and then elevated or appointed as planned, to the very family of God to serve in a position of honor and responsibility for all time to come? A future event guaranteed by the power and mind of Father God.

Isn't that what we may expect from a loving God who desires to share HIS creation with billions of SONS with Lord Jesus the head of all, other than the Father?

1Co 15:27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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cheekie3

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2014, 06:30:53 AM »

Kat / John from Kentucky -

The Father is the source of all Life.

There was a time when The Father was alone.

The Father then brought forth or birthed Jesus - whom He calls His Son.

If there is no separation between The Father and His Son - how come Jesus died and His Father brought Him back to life.

Is it not TRUE that The Father and The Son are unified as The One True God - yet are both inseparable and separate at the same time.

When we are all Holy Sons of God - will we not all be inseparable from our Heavenly Father yet all separate.

George.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 02:43:06 PM by cheekie3 »
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2014, 01:09:38 PM »


Quote
So once again I must ask; why is it necessary to believe that Jesus the man has in some spiritual form always consciously existed along side the Father as the Father's word or "logos"?

Hi Bob, well we have to considered what Christ Jesus said Himself.

John 8:58  Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

So Gen. 1:1 says that the Word was in the beginning, I believe this is speaking of the beginning of this creation and this Word spoken of is the God and Creator of this creation. But then He came to live among us as flesh and blood to have a human experience and to die as we do. This was His ultimate act of love to come down from His place on high and live in this world and literally die a cruel death, and doing this, as the perfect God of creation, His life was worth more than all of human life put together, therefore He qualified to pay/cover all sin. And not only that, but He also was first resurrected to open the way for us all eventually to follow in resurrection.

Rev 22:13  “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Quote
If there is no separation between The Father and His Son - how come Jesus died and His Father bright Him back to life.

Hi George, when you consider that the Son was not always a part of the Father, He did not always exist. But then that gives you a way to see that the Father brought Him forth and could then removed Him for that period of time, His Spirit did return to the Father (Luke 23:46). He was actually able to emptied Himself of the glory that gave Him spiritual LIFE, so He could be lower and born as flesh and then die. So He could and did lose His existence for the purpose of death... see what I mean?

Phil 2:7  but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.The Father is not dependent on the Son, but the Son is certainly dependent on the Father.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

The Father could do this the same way He brought the Son into existence, the Father is not limited in any way, so this is certainly possible. He could do this with the Son because the Son is not all of God, but the part that the Father brought into being to be God of this creation, even to the point of dying for us all.

But the Son is God of this creation and always will be and He in so being has the Holy Spirit without measure.

John 3:34  For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.

That makes me think that when the elect are made "like" Christ at resurrection they too will have the Holy Spirit without measure and this will give the elect that connection, oneness and like the Son they too will become a part of God, like Christ always has been. For now we are being prepared for what is to come at resurrection, for now the elect have the guaranteed, the promised that they too will be one with God when Christ returns to rule the world.

1 John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12  that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
v. 13  In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 09:46:46 PM by Kat »
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santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2014, 05:09:21 AM »

The Father is the living God
The Son is the living God
Jesus is the living God
Jesus is the Son of the living God

How come Jesus be the Son of the living  God when he is the living God?

The Father who is the living  God and the Son who is the living God are one God, they are one living God!
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theophilus

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2014, 11:18:56 AM »

The Father is the living God
The Son is the living God
Jesus is the living God
Jesus is the Son of the living God

How come Jesus be the Son of the living  God when he is the living God?

The Father who is the living  God and the Son who is the living God are one God, they are one living God!


If the above is claimed to be true, then the term 'Father' is equivalent to the term 'Son'; and it is illogical to use both terms. yet the Father is GREATER than the Son.

I think we would all like to think that we got this figured out and and that we understand it. I think there is at least one piece of the puzzle that's missing. And for this reason, we can't thoroughly understand it, much less explain it to others. Just my humble and lowly opinion.
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"So, if the spirit of God is going to be between your ears... you understand your heart is in your brain? Well when the spirit of God starts to motivate your mind then you have greater capacity."

-- Ray Smith

Craig

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2014, 03:10:33 PM »

There is nothing new under the sun, including the arguments, discussion and conclusions above.


8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
    “Everything is meaningless!”

9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs.

10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.

11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd.

12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

All the rest is chasing the wind.
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dave

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2014, 04:28:45 PM »

 :) Excellent preacher...... well said!
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2014, 05:41:47 PM »


It sounds like some think that these discussions are pointless on this subject... oh yes Solomon certainly did realized that it is an absolutely true that no amount of the physical can bring about "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding." But the Spirit of God indwelling can and does and we do have the words of Jesus that says He will "reveal" His Father to those.

Mat 11:25  At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
v. 26  Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
v. 27  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
v. 28  Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
v. 29  Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
v. 30  For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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