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Author Topic: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"  (Read 18398 times)

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santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2014, 03:53:33 PM »

Hello Kat,
Greetings!

It is very clear in Psa 22:10 saying that "thou art my God from the time I was born" or "thou art my God from my mother's belly"


What does it say, from my mother's belly / from the time i was born or from eternity?


The prophecy stated that Jesus has a God from the time he was born from, in the Scripture say from his mother's belly or he has a God from the time he was born on the earth not when the time when Jesus comes out from the Father.

even;

We cannot see in the OT when Jesus is still the  Yahweh/Jehovah  that he has a God but always saying "there is no God beside me".


I believe that the plan or drama started when Jesus sent by the Father to become human in order to save mankind.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2014, 03:54:37 PM »

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2014, 04:53:45 PM »


Hi santgem,

Just because Psalms 22 says "thou art my God from the time I was born" it does not exclude that the Father was His God before that. Now when God is spoken of in the OT it includes the Father and Son... THEY are one - God from the beginning when the Son came forth.

Gen 1:26  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us,

Gen 11:7  Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Compare that to this next verse that is speaking of the very same thing as Gen 1:26 where God is used instead of the plural pronoun, WE/OUR.

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.

It was not until the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.

Luke 10:22  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2014, 05:22:24 PM »


Hi santgem,

Just because Psalms 22 says "thou art my God from the time I was born" it does not exclude that the Father was His God before that. Now when God is spoken of in the OT it includes the Father and Son... THEY are one - God from the beginning when the Son came forth.

Gen 1:26  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us,

Gen 11:7  Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Compare that to this next verse that is speaking of the very same thing as Gen 1:26 where God is used instead of the plural pronoun, WE/OUR.

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.

It was not until the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.

Luke 10:22  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat


Hello Kat,
Greetings!

Again as i said that Jesus has a God when that certain time that Jesus sent to have a human form.

When Jesus made flesh, then at the time he has a God so speak with Psalm 22.

Can you not comprehend that when God created a God then you have two Gods?

but, when that God comes out with God that God will be one with that God so to speak in John 1

You said;
It was not until the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.

I said;
It was when the Son came in the flesh that the Father is "revealed" to us.


Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Jer 32:27

It was when Jesus came in the flesh that the Father became Jesus God.



Jesus is God and with God.

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. Psalm 90:2

For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. Col 2:9
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 05:58:27 PM by santgem »
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2014, 06:28:46 PM »



Can you not comprehend that when God created a God then you have two Gods?

but, when that God comes out with God that God will be one with that God so to speak in John 1

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

I am having a little bit of a hard time following what you are saying... When the Father brought forth the Son/Word in the beginning, they were not separated into 2 Gods, because I believe the Father brought the Son forth as an extended part of Himself. The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation. But that part is not disconnected from the Father, He is in His bosom and the Father has complete control over the Son.

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 5:30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 8:28  Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

I believe They are one, the Son has always been total and completely God... a way to look at it, it's sort of like looking at a part of our body, say the arm, it's a part of me and functions for certain purposes, it's not considered everything that I am just part of me, but not separate at all. But I control it and it is totally mine/me. Not a perfect analogy, but maybe it will help you see where I'm coming from.

When the Son came into the flesh He did not separate from the Father then either. His physical existence did not break that bond of oneness, He was still God (Matt 1:23) and retained the Spirit without measure (John 3:34).

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

The elect will also join into that unity of Their oneness and will be perfected as sons of God at the first resurrection.

Luke 20:35  But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
v. 36  nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

John 17:21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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microlink

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2014, 07:37:18 PM »

There is nothing new under the sun, including the arguments, discussion and conclusions above.


8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
    “Everything is meaningless!”

9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs.

10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.

11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd.

12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

All the rest is chasing the wind.

Craig makes a very good point. I find we can go on and on and on on this subject as has been done and will continue to be done. I find it helpful and stimulating to focus on His Word and rightly dividing His truth. The advantage in this particular thread is that it does make us focus on our Lord and Saviour and how truly great He and the Father are.
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3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

indianabob

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2014, 08:08:17 PM »

Ole Friend Walt,
I see from your letter that we often think alike.
Your way of writing and explaining is simple and reasonable and human.
I hope that the rest of us can think along similar lines and be teachable and humble enough to look at ourselves as little children, spiritually speaking.
I have benefited from all the comments on this subject, but I like your approach.

One question that I have always had was "who kept the Universe running if Jesus was the executive officer, commander in chief while he was growing up?"

Another is how can the "elect" eventually be just like Jesus if our elder brother the Lord Jesus was not elevated to his position under Father God and simply pretended to be limited while always knowing (from birth) that he was being prepared for the crucifixion.

Of course he could have learned of it after his bar mitzva and while maturing into manhood with all of his connections in the temple and local synagogues through his uncle the priest and that seems to be allowed by much of the scriptural story.

I like to approach this from the perspective of simple and practical understanding of the human condition, allowing always for miracles both large and small performed by our Father God and Jesus' Father God through the agency of God's spirit. Hope we each may grow in grace and knowledge as the days pass.

Warm regards, Indiana Bob


Hello ,all.

So far what I read on this post,is there one or two,I believe the later.

Bible study march 2011,
All of it ,but this one in I think is best.


                                         WHO WAS JESUS CHRIST

Now think about this, there is basically, apart from what some people would say that Christ never existed in the first place, but basically we have these teaching;

1) Jesus Christ is the second person of a triune God of this trinity God head. He’s the second person. He’s not the first or the third, but He’s the second. That He existed from all eternity with the Father.

2) We have this, and there is any number of them, and that is including the Jehovah Witnesses, that Jesus Christ was just a man. Okay, just a man.

Sir Anthony Buzzard, says in his book on the trinity, that Jesus Christ came into existence for the first time when He was born to Mary. He is not some other God, He’s not some deity, He didn’t exist from all eternity with the Father. He was born, a baby boy and grew up to be a man and that’s what He was, a man.

3) There are a few of us that believe that Jesus Christ was created by His Father. Begotten, yes, and created.

If Jesus Christ were this so called second person of the triune God, why would His Father have to tell Him or show Him anything? I mean He is God, right? What does the Father know that He doesn’t pray tell, if He was there with God from all eternity? He wouldn’t have to tell Him or show Him anything, I mean that is a slap in the face.

Another little problem is, if Jesus Christ is God, very God, God of God they say, eternal, from eternity. How could He die? God can’t die!

On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.

At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.

Luke 2:48  And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.

By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.

v. 49  And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…

“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch. 

v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50  And they understood not…

They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.

I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”

So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?

This is just for fun. Let’s assume that He did not have any recollection that He came from somewhere from God and that He was now growing up as a boy to become a man, the Savior of the world. He had no such recollection that this is what He was doing here. He was just a little boy. So imagine Mary, let’s say He is 5 years old, setting down little 5 year old Jesus on her knee one day. So she says to Him;

Mary - Son I have something very important to tell You. It time you know that Joseph, my husband, is not your father (To which Jesus is utterly shocked).

Little Jesus replies - I don’t understand. What do you mean daddy isn’t my Father? Who is my father?

Mary - God is your Father.

Jesus - God!? How can God be my Father, you told me that God was up in heaven.

Mary - Yes that’s true son, but He’s nonetheless your Father.

Jesus - Does that mean you’re not My mother?

Mary - No son, I’m still your mother.

Jesus - Is daddy and God your husband? I thought daddy is your husband.

Mary - Yes Joseph is my husband, but God is your Father. Joseph is the father to your bothers and sisters, but he’s not your father.

Jesus - But I want daddy to be my daddy.

Mary - Well he is kind of your daddy, it’s just that you were actually begotten by God in heaven.

Jesus - I got what? What did I get?

Mary - No Son, begot means… well I will explain it to you later.

Jesus - Mother does dad know about all this stuff.

I don’t mean to be sacrilegious, but I can’t buy that scenario. I just don’t believe that happened and something like that would have had to happen, if He was just a little Jewish boy growing up to be the Messiah and didn‘t know it. I mean who would want to spring something like that on a little boy? That’s pretty traumatizing.


Walt.
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Rene

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2014, 08:51:44 PM »


Craig makes a very good point. I find we can go on and on and on on this subject as has been done and will continue to be done. I find it helpful and stimulating to focus on His Word and rightly dividing His truth. The advantage in this particular thread is that it does make us focus on our Lord and Saviour and how truly great He and the Father are.



Therefore, microlink, if we are focusing more on God, this topic has not been meaningless, but to the contrary, it has been very worthwhile.  8)

René
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 10:11:16 PM by Rene »
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #88 on: August 23, 2014, 09:55:41 PM »


Hi Bob,

Quote
One question that I have always had was "who kept the Universe running if Jesus was the executive officer, commander in chief while he was growing up?"

The One whom He gave up His Spirit to at His death.

Luke 23:46  Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit!" And having said this He breathed His last.

Quote
Another is how can the "elect" eventually be just like Jesus if our elder brother the Lord Jesus was not elevated to his position under Father God and simply pretended to be limited while always knowing (from birth) that he was being prepared for the crucifixion.

He had appeared a number of times in the OT as a man, His purpose when He was born of a woman was much more than that, He took on the flesh fully so He could experience it and feel what we have to with a lifetime as flesh and blood.

Heb 2:17  Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He was also "God with us" (Matt 1:23),  and yes He knew from where He came and for what purpose as He certainly retained the mind of God.. why would anybody think He had His mind and knowledge removed? We know very little about His early years, but we do know when He was only 12 years old He certainly knew who He was and already was teaching in the temple.

Luke 2:46  Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
v. 47  And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

Luke 2:49  And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?"

Now when He was about to be arrested and die a horrible death of crucifixion, there was no pretense there, He certainly was distressed by what He knew was ahead of Him and that shows He was going to suffer just like any person does.

Luke 22:44  And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Php 2:6  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
v. 8  And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

This was without a doubt the greatest act of love EVER, to do that for His creation... He was God and willingly lowered Himself to be like us and die the way He did for us and He knew full well what was going to happen to Him.

We can never be 'just' like Him, in that He was "highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name," (Phil 2:9).  But the elect will become perfected sons of God like Him, if raised in the first resurrection and they will then be one with God like the Son is.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17  and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Rev 3:21  To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Rev 21:6  And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Rev 21:7  He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 11:46:35 PM by Kat »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2014, 10:20:26 PM »

Let us just remember that if we believe Christ did not retain the mind of God, and was rather completely human, then we are, consciously or ignorantly, implying, Christ had a carnal mind. This is blasphemy and we should take care not to blaspheme God.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2014, 11:41:52 PM »

I urge everyone to listen to what Ray had to say in ( (actually) both of the links Dennis provided--particularly the second one.
Sounds like we are about wrapped up here, , though I'm sure this won't be the last such thread.


Me?  I just don't think there IS a ''proof-text" that  sums all up.    NO Scripture is its own interpretation.  There is a lot to compare, spiritual with spiritual. 
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Joel

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2014, 12:03:16 AM »

The concept or teaching that God is the Father, was not a new teaching, and that he has sons was not either. That there are many sons (gods) is also a Old Testament teaching that Jesus reminded his enemies of. Who did the Jews think Adam's Father was?
The Jews had the scriptures read, and taught unto them regularly in the Temple.
Only those that were blinded then as well as now, don't get the Truth as it is.
The Word (Jesus) is just as much God, as the Spirit Father is God, only the words (WORD) are never GREATER, (equal to but not greater) than the one that inspired the words.
Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Isaiah 64:8 But now , O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Joel



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santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2014, 04:29:07 AM »


Hi kAT,
Greetings!

Quote
I am having a little bit of a hard time following what you are saying... When the Father brought forth the Son/Word in the beginning, they were not separated into 2 Gods, because I believe the Father brought the Son forth as an extended part of Himself. The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation. But that part is not disconnected from the Father, He is in His bosom and the Father has complete control over the Son.

You said that “The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation”.

Be it known Kat when that time God brought forth  YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah he is not a Being, we did not know how God formed YHWH but we know that YHWH brought forth by God.


1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Do not be confused  on the above verse because when all things are brought forth through Jesus he is not yet in his human form, he is still YHWH.


How the YHWH become flesh?


Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Phl 2:6-7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Psa 22:10 I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

 

Now Jesus was born and had a flesh, and the moment he was born he had a God. In his flesh he had a God because the Lord is the God of all flesh.


Rom 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. Psalm 90:2

For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. Col 2:9
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 04:40:56 AM by santgem »
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Abednego

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2014, 09:33:31 AM »


John, I know full well that Christ is fully 100% God "the fullness of the Godhead"... in saying He is part of the Father I am not saying He is only some degree of God, but that He is indeed connect and not separate from the Father.

But show me a Scripture that saying He is 'everything' that the Father is, that's all I need so I understand and agree.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

O.K.  Let's look at the 1st Scripture I quoted, Hebrews 1:3.

The King James and the NKJV says Jesus is the express image of God.  The NASB says He is the exact representation of God.

Does anyone have a Scripture that contradicts Hebrews 1:3?  That says Jesus is not the exact representation of the Father?


Well, it is obvious our little group are not of one mind on this matter.  But look at the interest it engenders.  God is bringing this issue to the fore.  I wonder why?  Why was Ray interested in this matter near the end of his life?

Ok, sign me up on the confused list.  I understand the "exact representation" because Jesus said He only says what the Father says, and only does what He sees Him do".  (Paraphrasing... too early and I'm too tired (lazy) to look it up but you know the scripture I mean.

But exact representation? That would contradict Jesus saying the Father is greater.  That's not exact.

BRB the popcorn's almost ready.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2014, 10:31:36 AM »

Go here and skip forward to 28 minutes: http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3 and pay attention.

Ray liked to say if something is true the more you study it the more it becomes true. The little I've skimmed this thread I see a lot of conjecture. In this audio Ray piles scripture on scripture. I don't hear any conjecture.

Also, in this audio Ray calls God a "being." My definition of a being is an entity that lives. A being does not need to human. Getting caught up in semantics is foolish when you know that no one is calling God the Father a human being.
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dave

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2014, 11:09:14 AM »

I believe that when we are given the wisdom to understand the concept of ONE, then the idea of dividing ONE will cease.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2014, 11:31:26 AM »

I believe that when we are given the wisdom to understand the concept of ONE, then the idea of dividing ONE will cease.

More conjecture. Concepts are not scripture. Beliefs are not scripture. One mans wisdom is another mans foolishness.

And the number one can certainly be divided. I divide one many times each week to get percentages.

Is anyone here saying God divided Himself when He created Jesus? Would God no longer be whole because He created Jesus? Is Jesus no longer whole because He created us? Are your parents less whole because they had children?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 11:33:53 AM by Dennis Vogel »
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Kat

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2014, 11:33:22 AM »


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Be it known Kat when that time God brought forth  YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah he is not a Being, we did not know how God formed YHWH  but we know that YHWH brought forth by God.

Santgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.

Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

Also God came down and "walked" with Adam in the garden of Eden.

Gen 3:8  And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

He appeared to Abraham a number of times.

Gen 12:7  Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Gen 17:1  When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
v. 2  And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."
v. 3  Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:
v. 4  "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
v. 5  No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham...

Gen 18:1  Then the LORD appeared to him (Abraham) by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
v. 2  So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,

Jacob wrestles with God all night.

Gen 32:24  Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.

Gen 32:28  And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

Exo 6:2  And God spoke to Moses and said to him: "I am the LORD.
v. 3  I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I was not known to them.

1Co 15:47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

All these verses very distinctly show me that it was indeed a Being in the form/image of a man that the Father brought forth to be God over this creation.

Here is a place where Ray had spoke about Moses wanting to see God.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html -----

Let’s look at this… where Moses wanted to see God.

Exodus 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, You say unto me, Bring up this people: and You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.

Did Moses say, did I find grace in this angel’s eyes? Is this an angel?

v.14 And He said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

v. 17  And the LORD (Is this an angel? Then Lord, Jehovah, Yhovah) said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that you have spoken: for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.
v. 18  And he said, I beseech You, show me Your glory.
v. 19  And He said, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
v. 20  And He said, you canst not see My face: for there shall no man see Me, and live.
v. 21  And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shalt stand upon a rock:
v. 22  And it shall come to pass, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by:
v. 23  And I will take away Mine hand, and you shalt see My back parts: but My face shall not be seen.

Are we talking about an angel? That if he saw the backside of an angel or the face of an angel that it would kill him? I don’t think so. This is the “Lord.”  But it’s NOT God the Father.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 11:41:15 AM by Kat »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2014, 12:13:02 PM »

More than once Ray explained ONE. I'll paraphrase:

I live in ONE nation. The United States of America. But I am just one of millions in this country.

I know people who share my beliefs on certain subjects. On those subjects we are ONE.

God the Father and Jesus share all Their beliefs about everything. This makes them One. But it does not make them the exact same being (or whatever word you prefer).

There are too many scriptures that show Jesus talking and praying to His Father. Was Jesus talking to Himself?

And as I've said before. Did Jesus actually die? Was He really dead? Can a dead man resurrect himself?

If Jesus and God are one and the same how come there are things Jesus does not know?
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santgem

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Re: Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2014, 02:45:01 PM »


Hello Kat,
Greetings!

Actually Dennis is right in his definition in a being " a being is an entity that lives. A being does not need to human".


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The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation.

In order for us to be on the same page i assumed when you said that the Father is not a being is like that he is not created and he is eternal. That in that case that i believe that when God bring forth YHWH he is also not a "being" or not created.

continuing;


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Santgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.

Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.


let us hear from the God's words.


Numbers 12:6 And the LORD said to them, “Now listen to what I say:“If there were prophets among you,I, the LORD, would reveal myself in visions. I would speak to them in dreams.
7But not with my servant Moses.Of all my house, he is the one I trust.8I speak to him face to face,
clearly, and not in riddles!He sees the LORD as he is.


The Lord show himself in a vision and  be able to take in any form as he wishes. He is sending messengers either in the form of a man, angel voice etc. I do not believe that Abraham and Jacob actually see God.

We are not to believe  that when The Lord manifested himself as a human that he  made himself of no reputation in the OT.

The realization of the Lord being in the flesh is when he "Phl. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"
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