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Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"

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microlink:

--- Quote from: Craig on August 19, 2014, 12:10:33 PM ---There is nothing new under the sun, including the arguments, discussion and conclusions above.


8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
    “Everything is meaningless!”

9 Not only was the Teacher wise, but he also imparted knowledge to the people. He pondered and searched out and set in order many proverbs.

10 The Teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.

11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one shepherd.

12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

All the rest is chasing the wind.

--- End quote ---

Craig makes a very good point. I find we can go on and on and on on this subject as has been done and will continue to be done. I find it helpful and stimulating to focus on His Word and rightly dividing His truth. The advantage in this particular thread is that it does make us focus on our Lord and Saviour and how truly great He and the Father are.

indianabob:
Ole Friend Walt,
I see from your letter that we often think alike.
Your way of writing and explaining is simple and reasonable and human.
I hope that the rest of us can think along similar lines and be teachable and humble enough to look at ourselves as little children, spiritually speaking.
I have benefited from all the comments on this subject, but I like your approach.

One question that I have always had was "who kept the Universe running if Jesus was the executive officer, commander in chief while he was growing up?"

Another is how can the "elect" eventually be just like Jesus if our elder brother the Lord Jesus was not elevated to his position under Father God and simply pretended to be limited while always knowing (from birth) that he was being prepared for the crucifixion.

Of course he could have learned of it after his bar mitzva and while maturing into manhood with all of his connections in the temple and local synagogues through his uncle the priest and that seems to be allowed by much of the scriptural story.

I like to approach this from the perspective of simple and practical understanding of the human condition, allowing always for miracles both large and small performed by our Father God and Jesus' Father God through the agency of God's spirit. Hope we each may grow in grace and knowledge as the days pass.

Warm regards, Indiana Bob



--- Quote from: walt123 on August 23, 2014, 11:08:51 AM ---Hello ,all.

So far what I read on this post,is there one or two,I believe the later.

Bible study march 2011,
All of it ,but this one in I think is best.


                                         WHO WAS JESUS CHRIST

Now think about this, there is basically, apart from what some people would say that Christ never existed in the first place, but basically we have these teaching;

1) Jesus Christ is the second person of a triune God of this trinity God head. He’s the second person. He’s not the first or the third, but He’s the second. That He existed from all eternity with the Father.

2) We have this, and there is any number of them, and that is including the Jehovah Witnesses, that Jesus Christ was just a man. Okay, just a man.

Sir Anthony Buzzard, says in his book on the trinity, that Jesus Christ came into existence for the first time when He was born to Mary. He is not some other God, He’s not some deity, He didn’t exist from all eternity with the Father. He was born, a baby boy and grew up to be a man and that’s what He was, a man.

3) There are a few of us that believe that Jesus Christ was created by His Father. Begotten, yes, and created.

If Jesus Christ were this so called second person of the triune God, why would His Father have to tell Him or show Him anything? I mean He is God, right? What does the Father know that He doesn’t pray tell, if He was there with God from all eternity? He wouldn’t have to tell Him or show Him anything, I mean that is a slap in the face.

Another little problem is, if Jesus Christ is God, very God, God of God they say, eternal, from eternity. How could He die? God can’t die!

On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.

At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.

Luke 2:48  And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.

By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.

v. 49  And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…

“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch. 

v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50  And they understood not…

They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.

I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”

So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?

This is just for fun. Let’s assume that He did not have any recollection that He came from somewhere from God and that He was now growing up as a boy to become a man, the Savior of the world. He had no such recollection that this is what He was doing here. He was just a little boy. So imagine Mary, let’s say He is 5 years old, setting down little 5 year old Jesus on her knee one day. So she says to Him;

Mary - Son I have something very important to tell You. It time you know that Joseph, my husband, is not your father (To which Jesus is utterly shocked).

Little Jesus replies - I don’t understand. What do you mean daddy isn’t my Father? Who is my father?

Mary - God is your Father.

Jesus - God!? How can God be my Father, you told me that God was up in heaven.

Mary - Yes that’s true son, but He’s nonetheless your Father.

Jesus - Does that mean you’re not My mother?

Mary - No son, I’m still your mother.

Jesus - Is daddy and God your husband? I thought daddy is your husband.

Mary - Yes Joseph is my husband, but God is your Father. Joseph is the father to your bothers and sisters, but he’s not your father.

Jesus - But I want daddy to be my daddy.

Mary - Well he is kind of your daddy, it’s just that you were actually begotten by God in heaven.

Jesus - I got what? What did I get?

Mary - No Son, begot means… well I will explain it to you later.

Jesus - Mother does dad know about all this stuff.

I don’t mean to be sacrilegious, but I can’t buy that scenario. I just don’t believe that happened and something like that would have had to happen, if He was just a little Jewish boy growing up to be the Messiah and didn‘t know it. I mean who would want to spring something like that on a little boy? That’s pretty traumatizing.


Walt.

--- End quote ---

Rene:

--- Quote from: microlink on August 23, 2014, 04:37:18 PM ---
Craig makes a very good point. I find we can go on and on and on on this subject as has been done and will continue to be done. I find it helpful and stimulating to focus on His Word and rightly dividing His truth. The advantage in this particular thread is that it does make us focus on our Lord and Saviour and how truly great He and the Father are.


--- End quote ---


Therefore, microlink, if we are focusing more on God, this topic has not been meaningless, but to the contrary, it has been very worthwhile.  8)

René

Kat:

Hi Bob,


--- Quote ---One question that I have always had was "who kept the Universe running if Jesus was the executive officer, commander in chief while he was growing up?"
--- End quote ---

The One whom He gave up His Spirit to at His death.

Luke 23:46  Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit!" And having said this He breathed His last.


--- Quote ---Another is how can the "elect" eventually be just like Jesus if our elder brother the Lord Jesus was not elevated to his position under Father God and simply pretended to be limited while always knowing (from birth) that he was being prepared for the crucifixion.
--- End quote ---

He had appeared a number of times in the OT as a man, His purpose when He was born of a woman was much more than that, He took on the flesh fully so He could experience it and feel what we have to with a lifetime as flesh and blood.

Heb 2:17  Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He was also "God with us" (Matt 1:23),  and yes He knew from where He came and for what purpose as He certainly retained the mind of God.. why would anybody think He had His mind and knowledge removed? We know very little about His early years, but we do know when He was only 12 years old He certainly knew who He was and already was teaching in the temple.

Luke 2:46  Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
v. 47  And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

Luke 2:49  And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?"

Now when He was about to be arrested and die a horrible death of crucifixion, there was no pretense there, He certainly was distressed by what He knew was ahead of Him and that shows He was going to suffer just like any person does.

Luke 22:44  And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Php 2:6  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
v. 8  And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

This was without a doubt the greatest act of love EVER, to do that for His creation... He was God and willingly lowered Himself to be like us and die the way He did for us and He knew full well what was going to happen to Him.

We can never be 'just' like Him, in that He was "highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name," (Phil 2:9).  But the elect will become perfected sons of God like Him, if raised in the first resurrection and they will then be one with God like the Son is.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17  and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Rev 3:21  To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Rev 21:6  And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Rev 21:7  He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

lilitalienboi16:
Let us just remember that if we believe Christ did not retain the mind of God, and was rather completely human, then we are, consciously or ignorantly, implying, Christ had a carnal mind. This is blasphemy and we should take care not to blaspheme God.

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