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[River]

I first want to say that I liked Ray's paper on the creed issue and I don't have an issue with it. I am using some lines from it ONLY because it made me think of something and how I view God now compared with past understandings. So please don't come after me. Thanks.

Ray wrote : They laid the dead Jesus Himself in a tomb!  How could Jesus rise from the dead if He wasn't really dead, but rather visiting hell?  And how is it possible to call the returning from consciousness in hell, "rising again from the DEAD?"  Can you not see the unscriptural blunder in this creed that has been believed and repeated millions of times through the centuries?  Just how important is this creedal error? Listen: if Jesus never "died" then He is not the Saviour of the world. The best we could conclude is that the Saviour of the world is a DEAD CADAVAR!  Do you believe that the Father of Jesus is pleased with such a deduction from His Son's offering for the sins of mankind?  I think not. Shame on such creeds.

The line "Do you believe that the Father of Jesus is pleased with such a deduction from His Son's offering for the sins of mankind?" is what brought to mind my thoughts.

After learning and knowing that there is no Free Will and that God IS ACTUALLY IN CONTROL..I personally lost a lot of this sort of thinking. I actually got more peace knowing that God isn't always being torn with shifting moods wondering if this whole plan might work or not. Now I am not saying Ray thinks any different. What I am asking is if anyone else now when they read like the line I pointed out, do they look at it different. I just don't think of it like he is not pleased or has some sort of bad feeling about it. I see it now as non emotional and God being totally understanding and knowing exactly why someone may have made a dedution from His Son's offering. I mean having the wisdom God has, I know longer see Him as a God I was brought up on. A God with shifting moods and anger issues and shaking his head at mortals. Can anyone else relate?

[Memme]

River, I’m not sure I get your point but my first thought when I read that paragraph is that Christendom doctrine doesn’t really understand DEATH!  The teaching is ‘we don’t really DIE, knowing nothing and are in the grave UNTIL the resurrection’.  If you ask them ‘Did Jesus die?’, the response is ‘Of course, He did’!  Then; ‘Well, then, if He was dead in the grave, how did He visit anyone in hell or otherwise’?  Usual response:  ‘He was in spirit’ or some other unscriptural answer (using the thief, the parable of Lazarus & the rich man, etc).  Not only do they not critically or scripturally examine that belief, they don’t have a clue to the spiritual TRUTH regarding DEATH.  Most of us have been there—I know I have.  How many times do we hear the statement ‘So & so died and received his angel wings today.’?  Being DEAD in the grave awaiting the resurrection is just not palatable to carnal thinking.  Also, the belief doesn’t equate to a resurrection of ALL the dead to judgment but I’ve talked with so many who really have never questioned the contradiction and until led to do so, it is impossible for them to understand.

I don’t think Ray meant to imply in any way that God is a ‘mood-shifting’ God.  I believe he used the statement as a metaphor.  Of course, God is, was and will be understanding of the ‘whys’ of false doctrine!  He uses it when it is HIS will to do so to bring His elect to spiritual understanding just as He uses the Law.  The false doctrine of an eternal hell couldn’t be ‘pleasing’ to God, but it is a tool I believe (and I think Ray does also) our Father uses in His judgment of His elect in every generation.  The death of the wicked is not ‘pleasing’ to Him (Eze 33:11) but that statement is not an ‘emotional’ one.  It is given in those words so that WE can understand and ‘turn’ from our wickedness.   

[River]

Hi Memme,

 Thanks for the response. Yes, I don't think Ray meant to imply in any way that God is a "mood shifting" God either. That is why I wrote what I wrote to make sure I didn't somehow once again ( I seem to have a track record so far) of making others think that. I hear you on the death subject, I get that. I think Ray covered that well. His paper on death I have shared with many people to let them view it differently than what churches teach. I was the one who grew up with the idea of a God having a unstable self who is angry and upset at humans. Now I no longer feel that. I feel he is understanding and love. He is not out to get me or has it in for me. Now certain board members may have it in for me but that is another story. IT'S A JOKE PEOPLE...not trying to sew discord among the brethern!!   

[Memme]

Ah....now I fully understand your point!  I didn't think you were trying to sew discord. 

I think all of us who have grown up in Babylon have been indoctrinated with a wrathful, angry God just trying to catch us in sin one minute but a loving, forgiving God when we are 'walking the line' the next!  Unfortunately, I instilled in my children the same idea  It broke my heart when my daughter shared with me how many nights as a child she couldn't sleep because she KNEW she wasn't 'good' enough to keep from going to hell.  Thankfully, both she & my son discovered the 'truth' before their Mother did! 

I think EVERYONE from Babylon understands the peace and freedom (the LOAD lifted, if you will) of FINALLY being given spiritual understanding of the TRUE character and nature of our Father by our Lord!  How sad it is the world of Christendom just doesn't get it - eh?

Blessings to you and yours,
Barbara

[River]

Thanks for sharing that. I can relate. Thankfully I didn't pass it onto my son but I lived that life when younger. The fear and the confusion, the contradictions. Very glad you have found some freedom and peace.