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Author Topic: Prov 18:21 am I rich because I said so or because I was predestined to?  (Read 3198 times)

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patmokgoko

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I hear on the pull pit that if you speak negative about your life so shall it be, I just can't link this with Prov 18:21 because I believe that every word on my tongue the Lord knows it already.I know I must always be positive but that has no link to this verse.How come when I speak good things about my life hundreds of times they don't materialise but just one mention of a negative thing "bang" you have just pronounced a curse on your life?Something dont just link.I dont know if I make sense but I wish I do.Please help!
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Arion

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Do yourself a favor and don't listen to the preachers of Babylon as they know not what they talk about.  They will take a bible verse, call it a scripture and then develop whole doctrines around that one verse and never give confirmation with other verses as we know that no single verse can stand on it's own.  They believe in contradictions and that is what they preach.  The ones your listening to seem to believe in the 'name it claim it' or 'positive thinking' doctrines and these come right out of Babylon and assume that if anything 'bad' happens to you it's either the devil that did or you laid a curse on yourself.  Yet we know that God is sovereign and nothing happens to you by accident. 
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newgene87

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So what is the "truth" of this verse? I'm still phasing from the free will idea; I say phasing cause it's such an accepted "doctrine" yet again; I do see rays papers on it AND scripture does agree that we don't have a free will; but verses like this, and other sayings in proverbs like this seem to hint that "we are able to 'speak' life and death over our life".... So what is the truth? Where does Gods sovereignty come at work when it comes to this verse? So I kinda feel you pat. This verse hints that we "have say" over our destiny so I seem to mentally dodge this verse but I want to accept the truth of it in line with Gods sovereignty. And not that I "make my own 'free' choices in life and I declare it" mess. So I can ignore preachers of Babylon but it is in the scriptures so I'm asking along wit pat; what sayest thou what this mean? :-D thanks. Nice post
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Kat

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Sometimes another translation really helps with a verse. See how the Good News Bible puts it and then other translations become more clear.

Pro 18:21 
(GNB) What you say can preserve life or destroy it; so you must accept the consequences of your words.

(YLT) Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those loving it eat its fruit.

(CLV) Death and life lie in the hand of the tongue, And they who love to use it must eat its fruit.

mercy, peacde and,love
Kat

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Dave in Tenn

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Gene and Pat...it's surely true that all of our choices are caused, including what we say with our mouths.  I think it bears remembering that the choices we are caused to make also become part of the cause for the choices of the rest of our lives.  How else do we 'learn righteousness'?  We 'learn' by experiencing both our failure to obey (and even our inability to obey) and by the practical and spiritual and 'everlasting' good results of obedience.  I see a prime example of this in the very verse you're asking about.  God's sovereignty is not diminished, but amplified.

I don't really see a 'commandment' to 'do' anything in this verse.  I see a vital piece of information for those God is dealing with. 

How do we 'obey' this verse.  These thoughts come to mind, though the word of God is rich and not limited to these.  First, we're not promised earthly riches, and there is a 'down-side' to having them and in desiring them.  See the rest of Scripture for more detail.  Secondly, do we turn this 'verse' into a call to do some sort of 'incantation' or vain repitition to reap some reward?  See the rest of Scripture for more information.  Third, are there not consequences of our actions/words?  Yes there are.  Are they always what we imagine/want them to be?  No, they are not. 

Is it good to tell the truth, to praise God, to edify the brethren?  Yes it is.  Is it harmful to lie, bear false witness, curse, decieve ourselves and others?  Yes it is.  Is it right to control our tongues?  Of course.  It takes all of the fruit of the Spirit to accomplish that, however.  Is God working in All of these things--good and evil?  Yes, He is.  See the rest of Scripture for more.

I'll control my fingers now and stop typing.   :D  Do good.     
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 06:45:53 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Mbongiseni

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Hi Pat

The preachers of Babylon are what the scriptures call them... liars... "I expose the false prophets as liars and make fools of fortune-tellers. I cause the wise to give bad advice, thus proving them to be fools.[Isaih 44:25]
Don't worry about them just “Let these false prophets tell their dreams, but let my true messengers faithfully proclaim my every word. There is a difference between straw and grain! [Jeremiah 23:27-29]

Mbo
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patmokgoko

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Thank you all, what I am saying is this that if I say with my mouth (repeatedly) that i won't reach 40 how is that going to have an influence on the number of years I am to live because they are set already, even before I was born.Gene you read my mind, Mbo (Mkhaya) I hear you but how do I dig my head in the sand when they (teachers of Babylon) continue to turn and twist the verses? Thanks Kat I will go with Good News: what I say CAN (there is a possibility)...Arion my beloved brother, how do I expose them if I do not listen to them Titus 1:9? Dave I surely learned something from "diminish and amplified". Love you all
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Memme

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Hi Pat!

James said:  "If any man among you seem to be religious (ceremonious in worship, pious), and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion (worship) is vain.“ (Jas 1:26) and; “And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (gehenna).  For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poisonTherewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?  Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.” (Jam 3:6-12)

Jesus said:  “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.” (Mat 15:11)

I think Prov 18:21 is speaking of the same principle.  “Death and life are in the power  (Heb: yâd)  of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.”

The pictograph of the Hebrew word yâd is  (sorry, it won't show up here) is a picture of a hand with a picture of a door that allows movement in and out of the tent. Combined these mean "hand moves". The hand is the part of the body that enables man to perform many works.
A) Hand:  With the hand one can throw away or grab hold, kill or heal, make or destroy.
B) Hand:  The work of the hand.
C) Hand: The throwing out of the hand for throwing, praising, or confessing

I did a quick search on yâd and, unless I missed it, it is only translated ‘power’ in one other place (Joshua 8:20);  it is normally translated ‘hand(s)'. 

Our tongue (mouth, words) will reveal the state of our hearts and an untamed, unbridled tongue will throw out bitter water that may seem ‘sweet’ to that tongue (at the time) but will be bitter to the stomach (later) (Eze 3:1-3,Rev 10:9-8)!  All of this, of course, is SPIRITUAL symbolism.  It has nothing to do with being materially ‘rich’ but being spiritually ALIVE in Him and yes, HE is in control and ONLY by/through HIM can that carnal heart be 'destroyed' so that our tongue can be tamed and produce ONLY HIS sweet 'water'.

In His Love, Barbara
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 10:28:01 AM by Memme »
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Mbongiseni

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You right Mkhaya. At every turn, whichever channel you tune into, every street corner... it's the same - this particular message seems to profit them.

Mbo
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GaryK

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Gene and Pat...it's surely true that all of our choices are caused, including what we say with our mouths.  I think it bears remembering that the choices we are caused to make also become part of the cause for the choices of the rest of our lives.  How else do we 'learn righteousness'?  We 'learn' by experiencing both our failure to obey (and even our inability to obey) and by the practical and spiritual and 'everlasting' good results of obedience.  I see a prime example of this in the very verse you're asking about.  God's sovereignty is not diminished, but amplified.

I don't really see a 'commandment' to 'do' anything in this verse.  I see a vital piece of information for those God is dealing with. 

How do we 'obey' this verse.  These thoughts come to mind, though the word of God is rich and not limited to these.  First, we're not promised earthly riches, and there is a 'down-side' to having them and in desiring them.  See the rest of Scripture for more detail.  Secondly, do we turn this 'verse' into a call to do some sort of 'incantation' or vain repitition to reap some reward?  See the rest of Scripture for more information.  Third, are there not consequences of our actions/words?  Yes there are.  Are they always what we imagine/want them to be?  No, they are not. 

Is it good to tell the truth, to praise God, to edify the brethren?  Yes it is.  Is it harmful to lie, bear false witness, curse, decieve ourselves and others?  Yes it is.  Is it right to control our tongues?  Of course.  It takes all of the fruit of the Spirit to accomplish that, however.  Is God working in All of these things--good and evil?  Yes, He is.  See the rest of Scripture for more.

I'll control my fingers now and stop typing.   :D  Do good.   


Good stuff Dave.

gk
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GaryK

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Re: Prov 18:21 am I rich because I said so or because I was predestined to?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 01:27:03 PM »

but how do I dig my head in the sand when they (teachers of Babylon) continue to turn and twist the verses?


Quote from Dave:    "It takes all of the fruit of the Spirit to accomplish that, however.  Is God working in All of these things--good and evil?  Yes, He is."
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Prov 18:21 am I rich because I said so or because I was predestined to?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2012, 03:21:00 PM »

but how do I dig my head in the sand when they (teachers of Babylon) continue to turn and twist the verses?

You don't, but that doesn't mean you go out there and try and corner a snake in a brior patch because we all know that you just can't do that. So how do you expose those who contradict? You lead by example, in action and deed. Those around you will see the manifestation of Christs power in you, because the result of Him being in you and taking you out of babylon as His, is that you will produce good fruit that bare this mark. Those of babylon, those false preachers, those wolves in sheep clothing, their bad fruit will stink to high heaven and those that God is calling out will start to smell those bad fruits and realize something here is not right and THEN you be ready to give an answer for the reason of your hope to THOSE WHO ASK YOU. (I.E. Don't go shoving your beliefs down other peoples throats.)

Welp, thats how I see it.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

cjwood

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Re: Prov 18:21 am I rich because I said so or because I was predestined to?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 04:49:30 AM »

memme/barbara, your post was exactly what i thought after i read proverbs 18:21.  thank you for stating it so precisely, from the Scriptures themselves.

claudia
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Memme

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Re: Prov 18:21 am I rich because I said so or because I was predestined to?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2012, 10:28:10 AM »

Thank you, Claudia.
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