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Author Topic: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment  (Read 3619 times)

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levycarneiro

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Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« on: March 17, 2012, 09:42:58 AM »

Hello brothers,

I've been reading and being very blessed by God through Ray's life and teachings.

I have a question... Ray always talks about how all men just die, and don't go either to Heaven or Hell at the moment of death. All will be judged (either now or later) and purified and saved eventually. Ok. How about the (wrong) teaching that there are both Heaven and Hell and that people when die, they die, but they will go either go to Heaven or Hell right after the Judgement at the Day of the Lord? I'm certain there's some contradiction in this teaching, because by other many verses in the Scriptures we know there's no Hell, but how to I logically present this to a brother in Christ, loved one, etc?

Thanks
God bless!

Levy
Brazil



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Rene

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 11:53:28 AM »


I'm certain there's some contradiction in this teaching, because by other many verses in the Scriptures we know there's no Hell, but how to I logically present this to a brother in Christ, loved one, etc?


Hi Levy, and welcome to the forum. :)

Before you attempt to logically present any bible truths to someone else, I would suggest you continue to study and come to a deeper understanding of these truths yourself.  There is a lot of material on the Bible-Truths website and as God increases your knowledge and understanding, you will become more confident and able to respond to those who question your beliefs.  In addition, you will come to understand that no matter how logically you present these truths to someone,unless God opens up their understanding, they will not believe or receive it. 

Be patient and continue to study and meditate on the things you are learning.  Also, feel free to join in on the discussions here on the forum. :)

René     
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2012, 11:28:17 PM »


I'm certain there's some contradiction in this teaching, because by other many verses in the Scriptures we know there's no Hell, but how to I logically present this to a brother in Christ, loved one, etc?


Hi Levy, and welcome to the forum. :)

Before you attempt to logically present any bible truths to someone else, I would suggest you continue to study and come to a deeper understanding of these truths yourself.  There is a lot of material on the Bible-Truths website and as God increases your knowledge and understanding, you will become more confident and able to respond to those who question your beliefs.  In addition, you will come to understand that no matter how logically you present these truths to someone,unless God opens up their understanding, they will not believe or receive it. 

Be patient and continue to study and meditate on the things you are learning.  Also, feel free to join in on the discussions here on the forum. :)

René   

Amen Rene!
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

cjwood

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2012, 03:12:41 AM »

welcome to the forum levy brazil.  you have joined a much different forum than any other.  stick around long enough (after studying the Truths which God the Father has confirmed through Scripture, and reflected through the b-t website and forum), and you will understand what i mean.   8)

with regards to your question in particular, about how to logically present a/any contradiction to a brother in Christ (or anyone) there is much written about this in the lake of fire series, and throughout most of ray's teachings.  if you have not read the lof series, or read through the many papers written, and emails to ray, you will miss out on so very, very much.  many Truths have been revealed in Spirit through ray, which he has shared through his writings, and his answers to questions.  as rené has said, ..."unless God opens up their understanding, they will not believe or receive it."

...teaching that there are both Heaven and Hell and that people when die, they die, but they will go either to Heaven or Hell right after the Judgement at the Day of the Lord?

if i am understanding your words shown above levy, you are saying this brother in Christ believes that when you die you are indeed dead and go no where (but to gravedom), BUT, right after judgement on the Day of the Lord, they (immediately) go to either heaven or hell.  if i have it wrong, please let me know.  if i am understanding your words correctly, this teaching sounds like he/they are still trying so hard to hold onto the WRONG teaching that there is a literal heaven and hell, and their WRONG understanding of what judgement is all about.  after ALL judgements are complete, ALL will have entered into God's Kingdom (the elect, after going through their judgements on earth, upon their resurrection, "inherit" the Kingdom of God).  no one enters into the Kingdom of Heaven, EXCEPT through Christ.  no one.  ALL have to go through the True and Spiritual Lake of Fire, whether in this age or the next. 

perhaps you could give your brother in Christ the b-t website address.


claudia 



 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 03:41:43 AM by cjwood »
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levycarneiro

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2012, 09:46:16 PM »

Hello Rene and Claudia, thanks for your help...

Rene, regarding trying to convince someone, for sure, I agree with what you say: only God can open our understanding. But I need to know and understand these truths completely to be prepared in case someone asks the reason of my faith. I have read probably 80% of the LOF series, and it's been a joy DAILY to learn so much every single day. God is awesome... I now understand what the "Good News" are really about :D

Claudia, you got it. I was wondering "what's the great contradiction with going to Hell or Heaven upon death?" => death is grave, silence, no knowledge, etc. In other words dead people are just dead. So I also was wondering "what's the great contradiction with going to Hell or Heaven upon Judgment?" => judgment is to correct people, not to punish them forever. Thanks... The other issue is having this whole bucket filled with so many marvellous truths (the b-t website) and not being able to just send the address to most of my friends here in Brazil... I'm native Brazilian and can understand English pretty well because I work for an American/Canadian company, but my friends would just read the first paragraphs and have a hard time going further... I know that is also part of God's plan (to have thought me English so I could even know about this website and Ray's ministry). God will provide, I'm sure He doesn't depend on me (amem!) and for sure I or someone else will be able to translate if not all, at least some of his papers to Brazilian Portuguese for other brothers here to learn.

God bless you all...

In Christ,
Levy Carneiro
Santos - SP - Brazil
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 10:01:36 PM by levycarneiro »
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cjwood

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 03:41:20 AM »

well, not sure about a brazilian portuguese translation, but i know that our forum brother moises, and his cousin beto, have been translating the lof series into spanish.  can brazilian portuguese speak espanol?

claudia

p.s.  bet you are a little pumped that the next world cup is in brazil!
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 05:24:56 PM »

Hi Levy.  Every 'house built on the sand' seems to 'fall' in it's own particular way.  Hang in there with your study.  I think you know that the act of translating will make you think more deeply than someone casually reading, no matter the language.  I'd encourage you to do as the Lord leads in that regard, but be careful in presenting these truths.  We're not just called on to 'have an answer' but to give it to whosever asks with meekness and fear.  A lot of people believe they can argue Doctrine, but are neither waiting for someone to ASK nor delivering it with meekness and fear.

I don't know if that is your attitude, but it is a very common thing for people hearing the Truth to want to rush out and tell everybody.  If that doesn't describe you, then never mind.   

You ARE here, so this teaching at B-T is FOR YOU.  Get as much of it 'inside' you as you can, and when the Lord causes your friends and associates to ask, it will spring out of you without so much pumping.

Again, apply this advice to yourself ONLY if it fits.  It's good to meet you.  Welcome to the forum. 

   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

levycarneiro

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 01:19:24 AM »

Hello friend Dave!

Wise words. It got me thinking a lot...

I'm not trying to argue doctrine, but I certainly wanted to spread it out as soon as possible. But I've been learning that it doesn't produce any good fruit to share the truth with anyone that is not interested yet ("who has believed our message?"). Besides the potential persecution that might result...

It's so hard to know something that wonderful and not having opportunities to share it...

I really liked your signature verse:

"Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle."

God bless,
Levy
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 01:32:31 AM »

Hi again, Levy.  I'm glad that your heart is in a good place.  Live Godly, and you will suffer persecution.  I can just tell you from my own failures that there is a difference between persection for living Godly and something-that-feels-like-persection from being a jack-a@@.  I hope and know that you will live the difference.

God bless you in your translation efforts.  They will bear fruit in YOU, I'm certain, just because they will make you think harder.  You ARE in a unique position being in your 'world' where most of the people around you will need to be reached in Portuguese.  The forum is here for many reasons, one of which is the occasional 'boost' when Ray may have you momentarily stumped.   :D  Just knowing what IS true eliminates a lot of error.  I think your original question is like that.  That's why it can't be answered glibly.

Do good. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lderr

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2012, 10:17:55 AM »

God will provide, I'm sure He doesn't depend on me (amem!) and for sure I or someone else will be able to translate if not all, at least some of his papers to Brazilian Portuguese for other brothers here to learn.
Levy, have you ever tried Google Translate?  If you copy a chunk from Ray's writings into it and translate it to Portuguese, how well does it read?  For example, here is what it did to your first post:

Olá irmãos,

Estive lendo e está sendo muito abençoada por Deus através da vida de Ray e ensinamentos.

Eu tenho uma pergunta ... Ray sempre fala sobre como todos os homens apenas morrer, e não ir tanto para o Céu ou o Inferno no momento da morte. Todos serão julgados (agora ou mais tarde) e purificado e salvo eventualmente. Ok. Como sobre o ensino (errada) de que há tanto o Céu eo Inferno e que as pessoas quando morrem, morrem, mas eles vão quer ir para o céu ou o inferno logo após o julgamento no Dia do Senhor? Estou certo de que há alguma contradição nesse ensinamento, porque por outros muitos versículos nas Escrituras que nós sabemos que não há inferno, mas como eu logicamente apresentá-lo um irmão em Cristo, amado, etc?

obrigado
Deus abençoe!

cobrança
Brasil


I don't know the differences between original Portuguese and Brazilian, but if it is understandable, that might be a way to present information from the B-T website to your friends.

For that matter, Google has a tool that can be put into a webpage that will translate it.  Hey Moderators!  Does anyone know if this has been considered for the B-T website?  Or are there concerns that a machine generated translation may mis-state things?

For now, continue reading, continue learning,

Lewis
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levycarneiro

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Re: Hell and Heaven not upon death, but after the judgment
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2012, 10:01:14 PM »


Hello Dave! Thanks for your comments, always to the point! :) I wonder sometimes what's the minimum amount of "problem" that's worth to be considered persecution? Because sometimes it just doesn't look like I have that much of a persecution, know what I mean? Excellent point on the real vs j-a variation :) That's something to keep an eye in my case! :)

Hello Lewis, Google Translate doesn't work well from English to Portuguese. For example, translate the EN word "eventually" to PT and you have "eventualmente" which really means "occasionally", as you see a very wrong translation :) Another example, translate the EN word "blessed" to PT and you have "abençoada" (meaning: a blessed woman), when in reality it could mean both (a blessed man, or a blessed woman). So Google Translate is good to give you a general idea, but not acceptable to translate something heavy as a Bible study. Thanks for the interest! :)

God bless you all!
Levy
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