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Author Topic: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God  (Read 9754 times)

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sarahfromcolorado

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2012, 08:54:21 AM »

Hey Denise,

I think it's also important to understand that there was no difference between the Pharisees and the prostitutes and tax collectors in that they were ALL sinners. None of them were sinless, even those who strove to adhere to the written law. But there was a difference in that unlike the Pharisees the prostitutes and tax collectors knew and accepted that they were sinners. The Pharisees trusted in their own righteousness.

It is the same with many Christians today. They think that it is because of THEIR righteousness or THEIR "freewill" choice to believe that saves them. They think that it is THEIR works and THEIR faith that distinguishes them from all the rest when according to Scripture it is God who grants repentance and faith.

Is it "fair" that God blinds certain people to the truth for a season or that he holds them accountable for what they do? Romans 9 tells us that God has the right to do whatever he wants with the "pots" that he makes and Romans 11 tells us that even these Pharisees and anyone else whom he doesn't grant faith and repentance to in this age will eventually be shown mercy and "get in".

So we may not think it's fair that some get to "go in" before others but that's what Scripture teaches.
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Gina

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2012, 12:56:19 PM »

Very good answer, Sarah.

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience (unbelief), only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].

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Revilonivek

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2012, 04:59:10 PM »

Guys, we may be mere man... but What is God? Can you tell me? Is he a life force? Is he a manifestation? The bible says God is spirit. Bible also says satan is spirit? I don't understand the defintion of spirit? is it something people try to explain how the brain works. like we are influenced by ego and ID and super ego in the brain? Where our morals of good and evil comes from, What if God is in the brain somewhere? Just guessing.

 we know that people back then did not understand how the mind works,or how science works, for example the anatomy and physciology of the mind. Whatever we think in our mind, we tend to do it also. That is will, not free will of course.. because we act according to what are in our thoughts. That is cause and effect laws. What doesnt make sense is that  Bible says God has emotions? The limbic system in the man's brain produces hormones that produces emotions. That is why you see disorders in people who have bipoloar, manic, or someone who seems happy all the time, or others who seem angry or sad all the time... or when you recieve meds, and it has an effect on the limbic system, you end up having flat face, showing no emotions.

How can God have emotions if he is spirit and not flesh? How can he say he love the smell of burning animal flesh if he is spirit?  Humans has nasal receptors that helps them enjoy the benefits of smelling something.without it, you cannot smell. smell helps reach the brain which communicates with memory receptors that helpy you remember w hen you taste or smell something.. How can God smell if he is not flesh but spirit? Maybe God is he is the life force that binds all things? It is just that.. FORCE? maybe?

What if God is the froce that is the causer/effector, the force that is causer and effector because everything is under mathematical laws. Cause and effect laws. Planets are under mathematical laws, they obey the law. they just do what they were made to do..

Another question is... is it possible God does not have free will  but a will?  like we do. we don't have free will but we do have a will? .he makes judgement according to what he sees.

 That is still cause and effect? Like for example. he saw the world was a bad place, he made the choice based on that to destory the whole land except for Noah and his family. Or because he saw all the evils at Sodom and Gorromah, that he felt he needed to destory it except for Lot and his family. Another example is Adam and Eve. God made the decision to move them out of the garden because they sinned. That is still cause and effect. he seems to operate under cause and effect laws as well. Does it mean he has a will or is his will "free" as well?

I think Force is like a series of mathematical equations.. once you make that equation- the result has to come that way.. or if you change the equation, the result would be quite different.. but it is the same idea. What if God is just FORCE that binds all things? like Jesus said, whatever we think in our hearts, so are we. Is that why he asks us to repent- change our thinking- change our ways. etc?

Force is an expert at mathematical equations.  to see that eventually people will realize the equations they have been making has always been up to no good, and they will finally realize which equations will lead to a better thinking, better life, better future, so they end up going to the new equations instead... Force knows the future.  Its like someone who knows how to solve mathematical equations- after several tries, after several practices, you 'll know the answer to the equation question. That is my guess?

What is God exactly? I am trying to understand.

Denise
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Kat

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2012, 05:55:17 PM »


Hi Denise,

Quote
Guys, we may be mere man... but What is God? Can you tell me? Is he a life force? Is he a manifestation? The bible says God is spirit. Bible also says satan is spirit? I don't understand the defintion of spirit? is it something people try to explain how the brain works. like we are influenced by ego and ID and super ego in the brain? Where our morals of good and evil comes from, What if God is in the brain somewhere? Just guessing.

 we know that people back then did not understand how the mind works,or how science works, for example the anatomy and physciology of the mind. Whatever we think in our mind, we tend to do it also. That is will, not free will of course.. because we act according to what are in our thoughts. That is cause and effect laws. What doesnt make sense is that  Bible says God has emotions? The limbic system in the man's brain produces hormones that produces emotions. That is why you see disorders in people who have bipoloar, manic, or someone who seems happy all the time, or others who seem angry or sad all the time... or when you recieve meds, and it has an effect on the limbic system, you end up having flat face, showing no emotions.

How can God have emotions if he is spirit and not flesh? How can he say he love the smell of burning animal flesh if he is spirit?  Humans has nasal receptors that helps them enjoy the benefits of smelling something.without it, you cannot smell. smell helps reach the brain which communicates with memory receptors that helpy you remember w hen you taste or smell something.. How can God smell if he is not flesh but spirit? Maybe God is he is the life force that binds all things? It is just that.. FORCE? maybe?

You are trying to put the horse before the buggy here. God came first, this creation of the human body and all of the marvelous things it is capable of is pattern after Him. The physical senses are limited to what we have physically to experience them with. I wonder how much more God is able to experience without these limitations? Infinitesimally more I would think.

Jesus Christ became a man, do you think He had never experienced any emotions before? Of course He did as the God of the OT, the Scriptures speak many times of His emotions. The human mind in all it's incredible functioning power to reason, comtemplate, judge a situation, intelligence to make decisions and that's not even talking about the emotions, but it is a very very very simple mind compared to God's mind. Jesus Christ has existed at least as long as this universe (billions of yrs), maybe much longer than that, He has had all that time to gain knowledge and wisdom from the Father. No wonder the Scripture say.

Isa 55:9  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
       So are My ways higher than your ways,
       And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Quote
What if God is the froce that is the causer/effector, the force that is causer and effector because everything is under mathematical laws. Cause and effect laws. Planets are under mathematical laws, they obey the law. they just do what they were made to do..

Another question is... is it possible God does not have free will  but a will?  like we do. we don't have free will but we do have a will? .he makes judgement according to what he sees.

 That is still cause and effect? Like for example. he saw the world was a bad place, he made the choice based on that to destory the whole land except for Noah and his family. Or because he saw all the evils at Sodom and Gorromah, that he felt he needed to destory it except for Lot and his family. Another example is Adam and Eve. God made the decision to move them out of the garden because they sinned. That is still cause and effect. he seems to operate under cause and effect laws as well. Does it mean he has a will or is his will "free" as well?

I think Force is like a series of mathematical equations.. once you make that equation- the result has to come that way.. or if you change the equation, the result would be quite different.. but it is the same idea. What if God is just FORCE that binds all things? like Jesus said, whatever we think in our hearts, so are we. Is that why he asks us to repent- change our thinking- change our ways. etc?

Force is an expert at mathematical equations.  to see that eventually people will realize the equations they have been making has always been up to no good, and they will finally realize which equations will lead to a better thinking, better life, better future, so they end up going to the new equations instead... Force knows the future.  Its like someone who knows how to solve mathematical equations- after several tries, after several practices, you 'll know the answer to the equation question. That is my guess?

What is God exactly? I am trying to understand.


This is directed toward the question in bold. So what is free will? From the American Heritage Dictionary; Free Will: 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Does God make "choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will"? Does God ever do anything against His Own Will? God is sovereign, He is total in all things and in every way. Why? Because "He is before all things" and determined how everything would be.

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

so yes God does not have free will, it is a myth, it does not exist.

Ephesians 1:11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 06:04:58 PM by Kat »
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moshe

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2012, 02:45:08 AM »

Wow, this tread seem to be moving in so many directions all around, so many good answers and honest questions.


Back to the question of why does Jesus put the average sinner before the Pharisees (religious people). I have read the answer when the situation was showed on a conventional way. With a fast look at it, it seems like the pastors and the people that teach religion on a wrong way have good intention, doesn't make much harm and it's not hard to look at them as okay people of society... But, if we would take a wider look at the situation, much of the evils of society have originated from Babylon. It would take a whole study to show how those small churches out there can do so many harm in a long term to peoples hearts. If we would have an small glimpse of how things really work in the world and how the christian religion as a whole influence so many aspects of society, we would not think at all that Jesus was exagerating when fighting the religious leaders of his time.
There is many different levels of sins/mistakes. Drugs harm the body very bad. Spiritual drugs harm the soul very bad.

 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 12:56:30 AM by Moises »
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sarahfromcolorado

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2012, 03:16:00 AM »


Wow, this tread seem to be moving in so many directions all around, so many good answers and honest questions.


Back to the question of why does Jesus put the average sinner before the Pharisees (religious people). I have read the answer when the situation was showed on a conventional way. With a fast look at it, it seems like the pastors and the people that teach religion on a wrong way have good intention, doesn't make much harm and it's hard to look at them as okay people of society... But, if we would take a wider look at the situation, much of the evils of society have originated from Babylon. It would take a whole study to show how those small churches out there can do so many harm in a long term to peoples hearts. If we would have an small glimpse of how things really work in the world and how the christian religion as a whole influence so many aspects of society, we would not think at all that Jesus was exagerating when fighting the religious leaders of his time.
There is many different levels of sins/mistakes. Drugs harm the body very bad. Spiritual drugs harm the soul very bad.

 

Wow, great point Moises. I have heard a few times from unbelievers and from those who once believed that it was those within Christianity that drove them away because of fakeness, hypocrisy or lack of love. I my self have felt more genuinly loved or accepted by people who didn't go to church or believe than those who did.

I am beginning to see more and more how many Christians who spend so much energy trying to get people to "join their club" are no less carnal then the people they try to reach...sometimes they seem even more hard/dark hearted. Though sometimes they may seem very nice and sweet on the outside once you start talking about how they could be wrong about anything, but especially the hell doctrine, they let what they're really like on the inside come out.

I think bringing up the hell and eternal torment teaching to a believer coul be one way to see where their heart is really at.

Some one who really has the love of God in their heart isn't going to get angry or offended when you present even just the posibility that God may not torment his creation. Instead of accusing you of being a heretic or condemning you to their hell they'll actually listen to WHY you believe what you do.
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moshe

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2012, 01:04:12 AM »


Sarah, I am glad you saw something good in my post. I know what you mean regarding filigrees. But I was referring myself more to the church leaders, to the teachers that are not good t what they do. Because many times they know better regarding specific points and still don't do anything. They put heavy burden on people and don't do them themselves. The filigrees are mostly ignorant crowds that don't like to think for themselves very often.... But yeah, I know your point.
And I was a church goer filigree once -but never again!
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Kat

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2012, 11:50:22 AM »


Mat 23:13  "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Are the ministers and preachers and priests of today's churches any different? I think not. You have a person/sheep who begins to think about living a more righteous life and wants to get closer to God they will look for a church/shepard. Now once they get under the sway of one of these 'Shepards,' do/can they get closer to God? We have come to see that when you get beyond the very most basic understanding, that Christ is the Son of God, that the church has no depth of understanding of truth, none. We have been there among them and can bare witness to this, I had my questions that I put to ministers and Matt. 23 holds true. If you go to a minister of one of the churches with a tiny bit of light that you may be seeing, they will try to snuff it out and keep to their manmade doctrines.

They (ministers, preachers, priests) put themselves in positions of authority/leaders and because they have memorized Bible verses and can quote them around their doctrines, the people flock to them. We realize that this is the way it is ordained to be, they are the blind leaders of the blind, in this church age.

Mat 15:10  When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand:
v. 11  Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
v. 12  Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?"
v. 13  But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
v. 14  Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Those who think of themselves as having authority it teaching truth to those that come to them, yet pull them into the ditch along with themselves, will have much more to answer to in the judgment.

Mat 23:14  Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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CEO

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2012, 03:49:40 PM »

Sarah

You are insightful and well written.  Two other references to the jews being LAST.  Rmans 11 describes the broken branch (jews) being grafted in after other believers;  Hebrews 11:40 'they shall not be made perfect apart from us (belevers), 'us' obviously being before 'they'.

The first shall be last?

ASKSEEKNOCK

Charles O
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sarahfromcolorado

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Re: Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2012, 09:14:42 PM »

Thanks Charles.   :)

The first being last totaly makes sense to me now. And Romans 11 is an amazing chapter. I could never understand it, along with other Scriptures, and they "bothered" me until Ray and people like him started showing all these truths about the nature and duration of judgment.

I think I heard him say once that just this one chapter in Romans disproves both freewill and everlasting judgment.
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