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[newgene87]

Ok, got past the subject line, had to put something semi-interesting cause the enigma of this text has always gotten me. (Genesis 18:25-33) bears the moment before God visits Sodom to destroy and he's talking with Abraham first. Now, no doubt, verse 25 holds a profound saying, "doth the Judge of all the earth not do justice?" now of course He would, but the next verses really confuses me. I understand the importance of words and what's written is important, so why the 'bargaining' and 'haggling' on whether or not to destroy or yet save, a remnant of inhabitants of Sodom and Ghomorra? And what's even more confusing for me, God starts off the discussion, Abraham takes 5 from the 50 and God says that he wouldnt: then Abraham comes back again decreasing and decreasing; and the wording is detailed......can anyone help me with this? Why? Why didn't God just stick with the 50 and why is Abraham decreasing the number (that will destroy more people)?? Why was this event that important that it was written and preserved, in detail at that. And yea, if it's not important well then hey, life goes on. Smells like haggling with lives, even though they were sinners and all. Thanks 

[sarahfromcolorado]

He asks God if He would destroy them if he found 50 righteous - God says no.
He asks God if He would destroy them if he found only 45 righteous - God says no.
etc, etc...

I'm not sure why you think he's haggling with God?? He asks if God would destroy the city if he found 50...10 righteous and God says he wouldn't. It seems like the lower he goes isn't a negative thing to me.

Am I missing something?

Also I think God already knew what He was going to do and Abe's questions had a purpose but weren't going to change that.

[olasupo jacobs]

Rom 3:9  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
I dont think God can be haggled...He really knows who is righteous, so when He mentioned 50 he's sure of what He meant, Abraham was only making human effort based on his understanding and closeness to God....sodom & gomorah was meant to be an example to us whom the end of the age has come
Really There is none righteous, no, not one: ....the scriptures can't be broken

It seems like the lower he goes isn't a negative thing to me.

[Mbongiseni]

...why is Abraham decreasing the number (that will destroy more people)??

Bargaining with life is human. Abraham was like all of us, where possible he would even put himself on the line for the sake of others.Remember he even took his servants and went to war for the sake of his fellowman in Genesis 14. I think I like his attitude towards life.If I also was to be told that all my friends and or family will be wiped out overnight and I have a chance to bargain , I definitely would. It happens everytime and everyday when we submit our requests before God since we request in line with His will, not ours.

Mbo

[Kat]

Hi newgene,

If you will notice in reading this passage, it was Abraham who came up with the numbers. God had spoken that He was going to go see if it was that bad.

Gen 18:21  I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me;

It was Abraham that began to entreat God by saying, (23) "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? (24) Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it?" Then God said no to this number (50) and all the rest of the numbers that Abraham came up with. So it was Abraham that was working out in his own mind what he thought it would take to save this wicked city. Araham must have thought that 50 was a reasonable amount to save a city for, but quickly re-thought that number, knowing the city and ask for less, and kept going down, because he must have known how bad the city truly was.

But God knew all along that there was none righteous there and was just hearing Abraham out, even though He knew it would be destroyed. God was Patient with Abraham and let him prove to himself that there was really none (even though he stopped at 10, he knew there was none) that were righteous in the city.

I think this is a good repersentation of the few and the many. Sodom & Gomorrah is like the world/many, like Olasupo posted,

Rom 3:10  As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

Then there is Lot and his family a very few that escaped the wrath and went into the mountains. But even there we see one that did not endure to the end.

Gen 19:26  But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Luke 9:62  But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Just thought I would throw that bit in there about "looking back" since it was part of this story.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

Abraham asked the Lord in Genesis 18:25 "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right"?
The answer of course is yes, and we are told that the wages of sin is death, and then comes the judgement.
God is in complete control of the life that he has given to mankind, and it's entirely up to him when to put an end to it as he did At Sodom. He also did a similar act when he brought the flood and many people died, and only Noah and his family were spared.
I can see that God has proved many times that he is in control of death, as he did when all the first born of the Egyptians died before the Exodus, and many other instances also.
The most interesting part in my view, is the judgement after resurrection. And just how it will be carried out and what the outcome is. And how God sees all the individuals that have lived on the face of the earth since the beginning.

Jesus made a statement that sticks in my mind concerning Sodom and Gomorrah in Matthew 11-15
14-And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15-Verily I say unto you, it shall be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha IN THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, than for that city.
So indeed the Judge of all the earth does, and will do right.

Joel