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[Kat]

Denise, I would like to know if you have read Ray's articles on The Myth of Free will? Your post indicate to me that you lack basic understanding on this matter. It just baffles me that you are so confused if you have read these articles. Now if you have read them and still do not understand, sometimes it requires rereading again so you have some understanding to apply as you begin reading. I would just like to know where you are coming from with these questions?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Revilonivek]

Hey Kat,

Yes I have read the installments on myth of free will. I already understood it. I am totally fine with it. It just boils down to us learning and overcoming the beast within us. I will read it again later if I still don't get it. I just don't understand the need of extreme evils. I know We are suffering, enduring, and overcoming and in the end, we will be free. According to the bible, We are suffering due to the causes He caused, the laws he created to make all things operate under. I know it will be the greatest feeling in the world once we accomplish this "age".  I just don't get the logic on few and the many.   I am just saying There are also no logic in virgin birth to prove a divinity, Jesus' death, resurrection, animal sacrifices in OT. I do find logic in his life though. it makes sense.

What if All of this is NONSENSE that God is trying to free us from? There are many religions- various beliefs are part of the series of effects that he "CAUSED". They are almost similar. throughout history- with religions-even Judaism in OT, they sacrifice innocent humans and animals, and so on.  What if all of this is nonsense? What if That is what God is saying to us all along, to come out of her my people? What if all this religions, including Judaism, christanity- Hindu, Islam, etc are the woman that we are to come out of? What if we are to be free from all that nonsense? they keep us from truly knowing God? Revelations says the whore will be made naked- which means- all the beliefs associated with it will be gone? Jesus never made himself any different from anyone else. I know Ray showed scripture that says God will smite the shepherd and scatter the sheep. it's somewhere. what What if this is what God is working on? The wisdom of all the religions is foolishness to God?  What if God is trying to put a stop to all the crazy religions- beliefs, etc, as they rob people of their relationship with God, the giver of life.

Lets just say God is shaking the foundation of my heart right now..I really want to be free from all of this. I just want people to just love one another. I'm sick of all the indifference that divide people up. And what divides people up is mostly because of religion itself. Not the only reason of course but it is mainly the religions that divides people up.

Denise

[arion]

I just don't understand the need of extreme evils.

Denise, with all due respect I would say quit trying to figure it out.  We know enough of God's character to know that he is doing what he is doing for a very good reason and he's proved his love for us time and time again.  Is it not enough to accept what is....that God is smarter than we are and that all will be fine in the end?  One can drive themselves nuts trying to figure out what God has not given you to figure out.

I know We are suffering, enduring, and overcoming and in the end, we will be free.

Is that not enough?

Peace......

[Revilonivek]

Arion,

Thanks! Your words hit a chord.  I just need to trust that I am in good hands and everything will work out just fine in the end no matter what I do. You are right. God is smarter than any of us. Way smarter- His wisdom far exceeds ours. our is just  a taste  of the fullness of what he has. You are right. Thanks again.

Sometimes I just need a reminder. sometimes I just forget that I am already in good hands and I need to relax and live life and try to let God help me in his own time and way.

I know Ray talks about this often but it didn't hit a chord or click completely until now. I think my problem is Trust... sometimes I just want to know who God is. I want to know everything about him, I'm waiting and wanting for the light to come on... I want to "make it" I want to understand. I want to succeed. I want to be free... It just didn't click.... until now.. That everything will be fine in the end. Just relax... live life..life to the fullest and I just need to trust God that he will take care of me.. instead of me taking care of myself... I'm like  the dog that's timid and stressed out and God is trying to tell me that everything will be OK.

Denise

[Kat]

Denise, what you don't seems to understand is that this age with all it's suffering and evil, the deceptions of religion and all of this 'nonsense' is the darkness that is exactly what was meant to be, caused to be by the sovereign God. Why? Because every person that lives must eat of the tree of good and evil, that's this life... we have this physical existence so we can gain an experience in living life. All people that are living or have ever lived are learning through all the contracts in this life about good and evil, this is the backdrop we all must have and the sin we are saved from. Here is an email the helps explain this.

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm ----------------------------

It is true that there are many mysteries that we do not understand. And yet, there is much that we do understand, at least in part.

God is GOOD.  What IS good?  How does anyone BECOME GOOD?

Take a very close look at ANY VIRTUE, Jake, and see HOW IT BECAME A VIRTUE! Is "truthfulness" a virtue if everyone always was and always will be "truthful?" No, because there is NOTHING TO COMPARE IT WITH!  Is "patience" a virtue that one can buy at a department store?  Can "patience" be developed and achieved QUICKLY AND WITHOUT DISTRESS?  I think not.

There is nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING that we can come to understand as part of our knowledge, that is not understood by how that bit of knowledge CONTRASTS with OTHER pieces of knowledge. Everything that exists is only understood by contrasts.  How does one know what "big" is if he doesn't know what "small" is, and vice-a-versa?  How can we say something is rough if we don't have any concept of smooth?  Up is only up in relation or contrast to down.   Light is contrasted with darkness, etc., etc., etc.

Do you see where this is going?  If we are to appreciate "good," it is essential that we have an experience of "EVIL."  If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!

And so, God in His infinite wisdom, has provided all of these things--we call it CREATION--so that mankind might experience all that is necessary to humble, educate, experience, and appreciate, the wonderful things that God has prepared for us.

All the ugly, evil, and misery of life can be likened to the scaffolding of a building. While creation of the new building is in progress, the scaffolding is an eye-sore, and serves NO PRACTICAL PURPOSE except the actual creation of the building. But, when the beautiful building is completed, we tear down the ugly scaffolding and throw it away--it serves no more useful purpose to our completed building, EVER.  And so we read that even DEATH, the LAST ENEMY, will be ABOLISHED (I Cor. 15:26)!!

I hope this helps your understanding a little better.

Sincerely,
Ray
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So for now and until Christ returns to usher in the next age this is what we have, people living and dying to gain an experience of good and evil. Now there is a very small exception to this and that is where the 'few' come in. You see when Jesus Christ returns He will have an army with Him that will rule with Him to bring salvation to the vast number of humans that will be raised in the resurrection of the dead, the 'many.'

So God has predetermined from the foundation of the world 'a few,' to be prepared to rule with Christ. These few are the chosen and given the Holy Spirit indwelling, required to understand the truth, and they are being taught (mainly through chastisement) righteousness. Just like Paul said "I die daily" the chosen must also give up their lives for Christ in order to rule with Him.

John 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

Rom 6:3  Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;
v. 6  knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
v. 7  For he who died has been justified from sin.
v. 8  But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Revilonivek]

Thanks Kat for your words.  It helped.

God  gave me something else to think about too.

I need to keep in mind that the bible is more geared toward people who have the natural inclination in the spiritual eyes and ears department. people can try but gifts are unique.  The same thing goes for  people who want to know how to make unique, wacky or one of a kind clothes, or how to cut wood into art  or how to paint like van gouh. It is going to be a struggle if it's not something that comes to you naturally inclined. if that makes sense?

 You know the bible says we have to have the spiritual eyes and ears in order to be able to understand and see. That is God's gift to certain people. It is given by God.

It is the same example as when God gives certain people gifts to do a certain something like, for example, wood art. That takes skill to do. That is God's gift to certain people.

God gave some people the gift of being able to make unique clothes that is not any other. That takes eye, wild imagination, and skill. That is God's gift to certain people

God gave some people the gift of empathy where one can counsel one another during grieving process. That takes a gift to be able to see and relate. That is God's gift to certain people.

God gave some people the gift of writing- The ones that are so good.. that takes skill. That is God's gift to certain people.

God gave some people the gift of great love for athletics. That is God's gift to certain people.

God gave some people tthe gift of great intelligence. That is God's gift to certain people.

God gave some people the gift of wisdom. That is God's gift to certain people.

God gave some people the gift of spiritual discernment. that is God's gift to certain people.

The common denominator of all of this.. is all gifts are unique and few. the all different gifts are all divided up to all people. Not everyone can do the same gifts others have.

For some, It may be difficult that no matter how hard you try. While It may come natural to some people. It is because God gave them the skill while he did not give others.

So for those God gave the spiritual eyes and ears- It may come natural to them and they just work at it. Even people with gifts, they have to practice but they do have the skill/talent/eye to do them. It may be proven difficult for others that was not given the gift.

The common denominator for all of this is that all of them are God's children-They are no different from one another. They are just made unique. That's it.

You know how it is,

for example who try to be lawyers due to family reasons;when they were best suited as doctors or vet. They are miserable until they live up to their natural gift that God gave them. You are never truly happy until you do the things that fulfills you.

Bible says It is easier when your will is God's will. The same will. It just comes natural to you.. it just comes to you. you just know what fulfills you. You just do it. If you don't have that same will for that spiritual eyes and ears.  it's hard to do it. Its like fighting yourself. It should be your upmost desire. something that fulfills you.

You are right. We are to die daily. we just need the natural inclination to do it. God has to give us that will to do it. We cannot do it by ourselves. We have to have the will to do it. God will give you that will if he wants you to do that.. Other than hat, it will be a struggle. like Jesus had the will to do God's will. That came natural to him. It was in him. He had what he needed. We all don't have that.. You know how it is, if you do something that is opposite of what you are.. you become miserable. It becomes a struggle- It requires will power. God has to give u that.

I understand now. Gifts are unique.  God promises that everyone will have it one day. I need to trust that. God knows what he is doing.

It's funny- I read about it in the bible. It just didn't click or hit close to home. I thought i understood but when the right words come- when people explain it from a different angle- it clicks. Thanks Arion and Kat.

About the necessary of extreme evils. I don't understand that part yet- I know we are experiencing the consequences of partaking of the tree of good and evil.

Thoughts come to me as this... Adam and Eve did partake of the tree of good and evil. we did not. But then again, Adam and Eve are our ancestors. Once they evolve, the rest of their seed has to evolve as well. We evolved to a point where we start seeing what is not there. Before they had the perception of evil, All they knew was Life. that's it. They don't see anything evil about it. They just saw everything as life. perception of evil  is what separates us from God. Bible seems to say that the evils has to worsen before we gets better? maybe that is the purpose of extreme evils? Sometimes it requires extreme evil for us to see the truth? I don't know.. one day we'll understand why.

[Dave in Tenn]

I began partaking of the fruit of the tree of good and evil the day I was born.  I don't think I'm 'special' that way, but I only want to speak for myself.    

[Kat]

Hi Denise,

I need to keep in mind that the bible is more geared toward people who have the natural inclination in the spiritual eyes and ears department.

You are thinking in the right direction, but    It is not 'natural' to have spiritual eyes and ears, actually it's the opposite of what is natural.

1Co 2:14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes it is a gift from God that anyone is given eyes to see these truths and that gift is the Holy Spirit indwelling. 

John 14:26  and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit from God is what must increase within us and we (our carnality) must decrease or die daily, so to become more like Jesus Christ. That's what the Holy Spirit will accomplish in us.

Php 3:10  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and may share His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death,

Adam and Eve did partake of the tree of good and evil. we did not.

The tree of good and evil that Adam and Eve ate/partook of was a representation of what all of humanity will/is doing. We are all eating/living/partaking of good and evil as we live this life in all it's many degrees and extremes. Though I believe that the whole garden scene was literal, it represents/symbolizes something far greater. Because we all have followed in their footsteps and eat of the tree of good and evil (symbolically). Since our natural mind is carnal and enmity to God, in doing so we sin, as we are far to weak to resist it, and all that sin shall die.

Rom 8:6-7  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.

1Co 15:21  For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

So the Holy Spirit is a gift and God has already chosen who He will give it to, none of us know who those chosen are, so keep on seeking.

Act 17:26-27 Besides, He makes out of one every nation of mankind, to be dwelling on all the surface of the earth, specifying the setting of the seasons and the bounds of their dwelling, for them to be seeking God, if, consequently, they may surely grope for Him and may be finding Him, though to be sure, not far from each one of us is He (CLV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cjwood]

denise, i have never met you, but i know what it's like to want to know the details.  how over thinking some things is futile.  and exhausting.  i read an article online today, and it made me think back to you, and the many questions that swirl around in your head and your heart.  i am not saying that you suffer from depression or ocd.  the woman who wrote the article does. 

the following is the part of her article which reminded me of you.  and i pass it on out of love for you denise.

          "your ocd is in your thoughts.  you think about things to the point of obsessing about them."  (to which,     
when the author of the article was told these things by a psychologist said, "well, that's just awesome."  )

anyway, i just wanted to tell you not to fret about the things that have no obvious answers.  One Day, all things will be made known.

stay hungry for His Word denise.  seek and ye SHALL find.  knock, and it SHALL be opened unto you.  His Words feed us and bring us strength in our spirits.  through Jesus Christ.  the Living Word.  the Door which we knock upon.


claudia

[Revilonivek]

Thanks Claudia-

You are right. It does sound like an obsession. It was due to selfish reasons. Wanting to "make it" Wanting to understand everything, wanting to understand what God is - I Know no one can answer that. No one knows. All we have is this bible that tells us limited details about God. We can only know so much- why push myself over the edge just trying to over think things.. 

You know what? I am just going to relax a whole alot. Thanks to some wisdom that was shined recently. There is very little you can do with the limited knowledge and wisdom. You can only do things that God gives you. not the things God did not give you.

I am just going to have to trust God with my life and know that I am in good hands. All i can do is focus on my life and live my life to the fullest. God gave us the basics to focus on.. Learn to love one another- love my enemies.

The thing is.. I don't know God. How can I truly love God with all my might, my  mind, my soul, my spirit, if I don't even know him? There are many things bible says about him. It doesn't seem to answer my questions about God, That's the reason for my drive..but then again, we are limited. We have limited knowledge and wisdom. I just have to learn where to stop and just let it go.. and experience life. learn from it with what God gives me. not with God did not give me.

the scriptures says things like at judgement day- Jesus or God told the sinners to get away from him because he never knew them. That's the scary part. But I am just going to have to trust GOd with my life. If He wnats me to know him, He will make it so. He will make it apparent. no point driving- no point trying to direct. Im just gonna give up. God knows what he has to do if he wants me to truly know him.

Thanks again

Denise

[Revilonivek]

Hi Denise,

I need to keep in mind that the bible is more geared toward people who have the natural inclination in the spiritual eyes and ears department.

You are thinking in the right direction, but    It is not 'natural' to have spiritual eyes and ears, actually it's the opposite of what is natural.

1Co 2:14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes it is a gift from God that anyone is given eyes to see these truths and that gift is the Holy Spirit indwelling. 

John 14:26  and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit from God is what must increase within us and we (our carnality) must decrease or die daily, so to become more like Jesus Christ. That's what the Holy Spirit will accomplish in us.

Php 3:10  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and may share His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death,

Adam and Eve did partake of the tree of good and evil. we did not.

The tree of good and evil that Adam and Eve ate/partook of was a representation of what all of humanity will/is doing. We are all eating/living/partaking of good and evil as we live this life in all it's many degrees and extremes. Though I believe that the whole garden scene was literal, it represents/symbolizes something far greater. Because we all have followed in their footsteps and eat of the tree of good and evil (symbolically). Since our natural mind is carnal and enmity to God, in doing so we sin, as we are far to weak to resist it, and all that sin shall die.

Rom 8:6-7  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.

1Co 15:21  For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.

So the Holy Spirit is a gift and God has already chosen who He will give it to, none of us know who those chosen are, so keep on seeking.

Act 17:26-27 Besides, He makes out of one every nation of mankind, to be dwelling on all the surface of the earth, specifying the setting of the seasons and the bounds of their dwelling, for them to be seeking God, if, consequently, they may surely grope for Him and may be finding Him, though to be sure, not far from each one of us is He (CLV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thanks Kat.

The spiritual eyes and ears may not be natural to humans but it is given by God regardless. It is a gift that many of us do not have. same applies to other gifts God gives to humans. not everyone has the same gifts.  I just have to trust God with my life. Whatever he wants. He's the boss. He's doing all the work. Fine.. He is just making it hard for many of us to know him. but I understand the reasons.  It's frustrating though. Honestly, I have no clue who God is. I don't know him personally. If he wants to me to know him, like Jesus did.. he will make it so. no point fighting it. He will do the work, the dragging. I just have to trust him with my life.

Thanks again,

Denise

[onelovedread]

Denise,
I really admire your honesty. What you say is not "pretty" but I don't think it shocks God. I sincerely believe that if you just wait for God, He will reveal Himself to you and show you the plans and purposes He has for your life. It seems to me that you are totally bare before Him, angst and all. One thing's for sure He could never accuse you of hypocrisy:) I will pray for you and you can pray for me.
Onelove

[darren]

Greetings all, thanks to those who gave me some insight on my post. It had taken many decades to learn how to forgive. I had got to a point in my life where the hate was a cancer that just ate me up. My mom and dad was not reaching out to me in forgiveness. They had many yrs to do so. I just got tired and prayed everynight for The Lord to show me HOW to forgive. I did not know how. Anyway I learn some hard and valueable life lessons. I would not treat my family the way I grew up. Yrs latter I can see the lessons. Not at that time.

Revilonivek: I  hear ya, Why extream evil? Good n evil, right n wrong, to be or not to be. That is the question I asked of me. I been hear at BT since Katrina 06 and I have come to understand through Ray's teachings 3 undeniable truths.
1. There is a God
2. I am not HE
3. there are things that I will never understand until and if ever God shows me.

 I just try to leave certain question alone and not dwell on them. I need to make it through today. Tomorrow will bring its own troubles. I deal with tomorrow when It gets here.

Thanks BT.