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Can we win souls for Christ?
doug:
Hey Onelovedread! Nice post. I'm learning a lot with everyone's comments to this thread.
Hi Kat and Rene' and all who are commenting.
Can WE win souls for Christ? In a word NO! But we must not stop here! There are more aspects to this question.
I have to agree with John and also with DougE6 and with Kat's comment where I believe she is trying to blend the two together.
[I had almost completed an earlier comment and somehow without my hands not even being on my keyboard, and not quite complete, my homepage appeared and I had lost all that I had written. It was in more detail and I am trying to retrace my thoughts. Ugh!! ]
I believe that not only does God use the foolishness of the world to draw many to Him (false preaching, world events, situations etc.) to choose some of the many, He also uses His elect (unknown to us of course) to draw and choose who He wills in this present age, just as Rene' suggested with scripture.
Our duty as true believers is to act out our lives in Christ as the Holy Spirit moves us. This is our "great commission". Then, if one is given the ability to teach, such as Ray, or to evangelize like Doug, then we are to use those talents.
For example: Just like when we think prayer is of no consequence because all is foreordained by God, we are commanded by God to pray. When we feel that "urging" to pray for someone or something, that may very well be the Holy Spirit urging us to pray. When we feel the urging we are not to quench/stifle the Holy Spirit. God's ways are not our ways.
Likewise, it is the same with witnessing. Whether it be by our actions, lifestyle, communication or full blown evangelism like Doug is proclaiming; God may use "us" as a *cause* for the effect that He desires, IE, to draw and choose some, in this age, for Him.
We can use the parables of Jesus (like Ray teaches, they all typify the same thing) but in particular, Luke 18: 9-14, many who were called doesn't mean all were chosen. But, those that were "justified" - doesn't that mean they were called and chosen/saved? One example in Jesus' ministry, nine were called, one was chosen. "and He said to them, 'Having risen, be going on, thy faith hath *saved* thee.' Luke 17: 11-16. YLT
I would have to search more thouroughly, but I believe there are other examples like this one where some that Jesus healed were also saved. But, for sure, very few were.
Now I have a question. Is it absolutely true that Jesus did not save anyone? Can anyone find two scriptures that state that Jesus did not save anyone?
I'm sure that all of you know, that with all of my comments, past or future, I will never be "dogmatic". I am always open for correction and to change any wrong view when truth is presented.
doug:
Some examples of Jesus' interaction with individuals and "saving" them by their faith.
' and Jesus said unto him, receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.' Luke 18:42
'...see: your faith has saved you' Mark 10:52
'take courage daughter, thy faith hath saved thee,....' Luke 18:48
'your faith has saved you, go in peace.' Luke 7:50
'For by grace ye are saved, through faith....' Eph. 2: 8,9 ---- whose faith?.... Christ's faith!
Kat:
Hi Doug,
--- Quote ---Now I have a question. Is it absolutely true that Jesus did not save anyone? Can anyone find two scriptures that state that Jesus did not save anyone?
--- End quote ---
Your question I believe is from the statment John made; "When Jesus was on the earth in the form of a man, He did not convert even one human. No one was converted until after His death."
Now this is true, because a person must have there eyes opened to this truth in order to repent and that only comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of Christ and that did not take place until Christ returned to the Father.
John 7:39 Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.
The word "saved" in the verses you present does not seem to apply toward salvation. Look at these other translations.
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way. (KJV)
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, Go, your faith has healed you. And instantly he saw again, and he followed Jesus in the way. (MKJV)
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way. (ESV)
Here is an email that helps explain why the word 'saved' is used in some Scripture.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4189.0 --------------
Luke 7:50 is speaking of being "saved" from her prior condition, just as when Jesus told various people that their "faith has made thee WHOLE," when He healed them of a disease. This verse is not speaking of spiritual salvation.
I Cor. 1:18 is in the Greek aorist tense, and therefore should be rendered, "yet to us who are BEING saved...."
II Cor. 2:15 likewise should be rendered, "in those who ARE BEING saved and in those who ARE PERISHING...."
Eph. 2:5 "(in grace you are saved)" is speaking of HOW we are saved, NOT WHEN we are saved. Those to come after us also "ARE saved by grace" rather than by some other means. Same with verse 8.
II Tim. 1:9 likewise should be translated "who SAVES us and CALLS us..."
You didn't read my paper: "YOU FOOLS! YOUR HYPOCRITES! YOUR SNAKES!" did you? Near the end I cover these verses and explain them in detail.
God be with you,
Ray
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So nobody was, nor could have been 'saved' while Jesus was still on earth. But He is "the Door" and the only way by which anybody can be saved. But in this life we only receive the an "earnest" of His Spirit as we are not "saved" yet, but are being/shall be saved.
2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Acts 4:10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this name does this man stand before you whole.
v. 11 This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
v. 12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
As we all know the only possible way for salvation is through "the Door," Jesus Christ.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. Here is a link to the article "How Hard is Getting Saved?' a very good read
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
doug:
Ray and Kat - I have to be honest - I'm in shock. I can see where I need lots and lots of review on my understanding of "spiritual conversion".
Yes, I had read the paper "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes! I had also read and had listened to the audio of the link you gave Kat. Some of the topics there were new to me but I understand and agree with all said. I have again reread the sections in "You Fools..." [3] This is the only day of salvation - II Cor. 6:2, and also reread the section "This is the briefest outline of how God saves us." These materials still leave out the questions I have and did not explain enough in detail for my understanding.
Before coming to this forum or the BT site, I knew that salvation was an ongoing process; sin, judgment, repentance, sin, judgment, repentance, "all the day long", throughout a "true believer's" walk. So that and especially God's sovereignty is no problem with me. When I generically use the word save, I mean "ongoing" salvation.
First, I need to establish a foundation that we can agree upon before I can proceed with any bible study. I'm missing a critical link somewhere. So bear with me on these initial questions.
Are we back to the age old question that no one was spiritually converted from Adam to the Pentecost?
Are you inferring that none of the people at Nineveh from the King on down repented? And therefore were not spiritually converted?
Was not the Spirit of God, also called the Holy Spirit, in Jesus when He walked this earth? Or was that taken from Him when He was made a little lower than the angels? Isn't Jesus the very essence of the Holy Spirit?
Was not the Holy Spirit of God (btw, I'm not a trinitarian) in those that God inspired to write the scriptures? Both O/T & N/T?
Was not Jesus using the physical act of healing the multitudes and by "drawing/dragging" a few individuals aside as written in the gospels to show/illustrate to us the spiritual application of how He heals ones sin sick soul and to be spiritually healed? IE, saved, converted,... from then on (for those select few) the "process" of salvation?
Are you not picking and choosing bible translations to form a doctrine that Jesus didn't "save" anyone? Or am I doing the same to show that He in fact did - and that those He used as an example of spiritual conversion not only got physically saved but also spiritually healed?
sincerely, doug
Kat:
Hi Doug,
--- Quote ---Are we back to the age old question that no one was spiritually converted from Adam to the Pentecost?
--- End quote ---
Well that is the way I see it. As with the Scriptures I have already posted nobody will/can be in the first Resurrection accept "through" Jesus Christ.
Acts 4:11 This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
v. 12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
The man Jesus Christ was not even born yet in the OT, so nobody could be brought/drawn to Him before His life and death.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
In Hebrews 11 we have a long list of the faithful of the OT, but they "did not receive the promise."
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise,
They did not receive the promise because the Savior had not been born yet, but they will be "made perfect" in the next age through Christ and those reigning with Him "us," those elect who are in the first resurrection.
v. 40 for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.
Not even John the Baptist will be in the first resurrection, because he died before Christ was sacrificed.
Mat 11:11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.
There are only a few that are chosen from the many that will be brought to receive salvation in this age. Here is a section from the article #8 'What Happened to the Church Jesus Built?'
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -----------------------------------------
THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).
So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?
Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!
But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).
These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."
One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:
"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don’t just ‘work’ together without GOD doing the ‘working’] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not ‘called’ as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).
Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.
There are many more "called" in each generation than are actually, "chosen" to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time.
All that are not chosen will be in the second resurrection/white throne judgment/lake of fire. These will go the "broad way into destruction" from which they will await judgment at the great white throne. But, those which God foreknows and designates beforehand, He definitely does call, but these designated ones GO ON to be JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED. They are not just the "called," but the "called AND CHOSEN" which will go on to glorification in service with Christ, as the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, in the Kingdom of God, to bring the rest of heaven and earth to SALVATION!
When Jesus says that,
"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord… Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matt. 722-23),
He is not speaking of a minority but a majority. The "many" NEVER means the minority!
We will see it conclusively proved from God’s Word that the majority in the Church today are going the "broad way," and not the "straight and narrow way." And I am not just preaching to the choir when I say that only a "FEW" will be in the first resurrection and rule and reign with Christ, I am speaking to all the church and to myself as well. I know these aren’t the "soft" words that tickle people’s ears, but what I am telling you is a "hard saying" of the Scripture that is absolutely true. Jesus Christ Himself said that "THE MANY" must "DEPART from Me." Jesus doesn’t "know" the many, in a spiritual relationship, because they are too carnal to be spiritual.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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