> General Discussions
Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
eggi:
--- Quote from: Arion on April 05, 2012, 09:15:41 AM ---
If Paul was not an apostle then we might as well tear out almost half of the new testament and then where does that leave us if we go down that rabbit trail? Leads us right back into Babylon friends.
--- End quote ---
And this is exactly what many have done. These days there is a "Hebrew roots" movement sweeping through Christianity. Many of the Hebrew Roots congregations have a problem with what Paul is saying regarding the law of Moses. They are then left with two possibilities, either they twist the words of Paul into saying that Christians must obey the law of Moses, or they get rid of him altogether, saying that he was a false apostle, or that he was too Hellenistic in his interpretation of the Scriptures. Some Hebrew roots congregations leave out Christ's work of redemption as well, saying that His mission was just to renew the Torah, and that it is through observing the Torah that we are saved. So obviously we can see what these ideas lead to...
To doubt Paul's status as a CHOSEN VESSEL by Christ is a discussion that I don't even want to get sucked into. As Arion mentioned, we might as well then tear out half of the New Testament.
Revilonivek:
Yes. All scriptures are given by inspiration. God is teaching us something. Pay attention to the scriptures. It is telling us something abt characters and what to loook for. Throughout the bible we learn abt different kinds of people and their characters. There are good and bad people throught old testament. Why not the new testament too? Jesus did say there will be many false prophets and apostles rising up after he leaves. What if Paul is an example of one? Showing us how this example can decieve many? I don't know. Something just did not feel right with Paul. That's all.
Dave in Tenn:
There were those in Paul's day that didn't care much for Paul. They haunted him in every church he started and followed him from place to place to see if they could siphon off from or take credit for his ministry. What do you reckon he said or did about that?
Did Paul really boast? Do you know what an Apostle is?
Let me say that it took me a while to 'like' Ray and it took me a while to 'like' Paul...but it wasn't for anything that Paul actually said or did, but what I ""felt"" he said or did. I encourage you, since you've spent two whole weeks reading the 'gospels' to spend at least a couple of days reading Acts, and then some more time reading the epistles of Paul. ALL the words. In a readable translation.
For purposes of the forum, I'm willing to leave this up a little while--at least until Gene indicates where he's coming from. Ray has plenty to say about Paul, and Paul is monumentally easy to "defend" for those of us inclined to do so. I'm in that "us"...that's not just diplomatic-speak. That doesn't mean we're going to entertain every whim or allow the thread to break the rules or become too unwieldy to read.
eggi:
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on April 05, 2012, 09:54:59 AM ---Yes. All scriptures are given by inspiration. God is teaching us something. Pay attention to the scriptures. It is telling us something abt characters and what to loook for. Throughout the bible we learn abt different kinds of people and their characters. There are good and bad people throught old testament. Why not the new testament too? Jesus did say there will be many false prophets and apostles rising up after he leaves. What if Paul is an example of one? Showing us how this example can decieve many? I don't know. Something just did not feel right with Paul. That's all.
--- End quote ---
Denise, I'm sorry you feel that way.
This is written by Peter the Apostle:
2 Peter 3:14-16: Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Since Peter, in a letter where he discusses FALSE TEACHERS, obviously approves of Paul as a BELOVED BROTHER, then I think it is clear that Paul is not "an example of a false prophet". Or should we suggest that Peter is also false? What about the rest of the apostles?
What exactly is it that just doesn't feel right with Paul?
Kat:
If you don't believe that Paul is a true Apostle, then how can you believe any of the gospel? He is a primary writer of the NT Scripture. Peter makes it clear that he supported Paul's writings and as a fellow apostle. Peter and obviously the other apostles stood behind Paul or else they would not have approved and canonized his books for the NT. If you call into question Paul, as he is a pivotal writer and teacher of so many truths, how do you stand behind this truth at all?
Here is some things that Ray said about Paul at the conference "How We Got The Bible.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html -----------------------
But look at this.
II Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.
v. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;
Who did Paul write all his epistles to? The Gentiles. Paul is now in prison in Roman and Peter is writing to the Gentiles. What is going on here? Apparently Paul wanted him to, because Paul can’t get these letters out being in Roman, like he use to.
II Peter 3:16 as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
What did Peter know about “all his (Paul’s) epistles”? Because Peter had them. He had them all. How did he get them?
II Tim. 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with you; for he is useful to me for ministering.
v. 12 But Tychicus I sent to Ephesus.
v. 13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou come, and the books, ESPECIALLY THE PARCHMENTS.
These are Paul’s letters. These are not the books, but the vellums, these are his epistles. Why would he want all his epistles? Didn’t he know what he said? Well he knows his time is near the end and Paul knows what he has written is Scripture. We read many Scripture showing that he knew that he was writing ‘Bible verses’ if you will.
Now Paul wants Mark to come and bring those letters, because he’s going to go through them. In fact he’s going to edit some of them.
v
Consider one thing, Paul both understood Judaic theology and the classic works of the Gentiles. He was an intellectual both among the Jews and the Gentiles. He would have been the last person on earth to believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Paul persecuted TO DEATH those who followed the teachings of Jesus.
v
Another thing is Paul was maybe the greatest single champion for Jesus Christ, of any man that ever lived and he was no dummy. This guy studied under Rabbi Gamaliel, one of the greatest teachers of all times in the Jewish ways. Paul was from Tarsus the center for Stoic learning. You don’t bamboozle somebody like Paul. Especially because he is out persecuting the church and then he turns around and he defends it. What would change a well educated man like that? What would change him? For Paul to have his mind totally changed, required proof beyond question or contradiction. PAUL DIED FOR HIS BELIEF THAT JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD, that He both died and was resurrected.
v
II Cor. 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me,
Paul makes no bones about it, he says, I was given a lot of revelations from God. Well these revelations weren’t given to him just for his pride and vanity. So he knew all this stuff and this was going to be written down as Scripture, not everything, but a lot.
Paul may have written hundreds of letters, he probably wrote letters all the time. But they were not all destined to be in the canon or the Scripture.
Eph 3:3-7 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I was made a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
So in other ages, in the Old Testament this stuff was not known. They did not know what Paul was telling them. This is new revelation from God, “as it has now been revealed by the Spirit.” So there are apostles and prophets at the time of Paul. He was an Apostle and anybody who speaks, sings or writes inspired writing from God is a prophet.
Col 1:25 whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, TO FULFILL THE WORD OF GOD,
This is not saying, that I Paul am fulfilling some Scripture that talks about me being an Apostle? No. There is no Old Testament Scripture that prophesied about Paul being an Apostle. None. He’s not fulfilling some prophecy about himself.
He’s filling up his writing - his prophesying - his inspired writing - his teachings of the mystery of Christ, his version of the gospel given to him. This is going to fill up the Word of God, complete it, see.
We have to be careful that we don’t put interpretations on words that isn’t there. To fill it means to fill it full, to fill it up full, the Word of God.
Col 1:26 the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to His saints,
How? Through Paul’s writings, and Peters, James, Jude and John.
I Cor. 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
These things are straight from the Lord. Straight from God. All this stuff that Paul is writing, is Scripture.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version