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Author Topic: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?  (Read 10165 times)

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2012, 06:21:31 PM »

If you're going to make a list of accusations against Paul, then please present the evidence from Scripture.  I'm prepared to refute some of what Gene mentioned, but I'm not a bible-encyclopedia.  If you're all ears, then give a guy a break and at least point out from scripture where you get these.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Craig

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2012, 06:39:17 PM »

Or at least a couple of them.  Denise you are like a flag in the wind.  I like that you are a searcher but you gotta realize a person can search and read the internet and find a good hypothesis on about any subject, I even found a pretty convincing site that claimed the moon was made of cheese.

Eventually you will need to pick your side, flying in the wind will give you no ground to stand on.  The forum is not here to defend against the thousands of sites on the internet that do nothing but detract from the Word of God.  They can be very convincing, so it really comes down to faith and what side you want to be on. 

If you believe the original scriptures are inspired by God, then that has to be your roadmap or rulebook.  So if you find questions, such as the ones you give about Paul and want to ask them, then you at least need to give scripture to back it up, and remember the golden rule of study; you need at least two witnesses to defend that scripture.

Please don't use a shotgun approach, it is not fruitful and honestly it is irritating :).  Just start with one or two questions, defend what you see with scripture and give the members a chance to see if your point is valid. If you cannot defend your points with scripture, but perhaps maybe others can defend theirs, you must be ready to change your mind or agree to disagree and move on.  I don't care what you believe, even the moon being made of cheese, but we can't continually bring in teachings or opinions of others outside the forum, that is not the purpose.

Craig
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 06:53:58 PM by Craig »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2012, 06:44:48 PM »

My thiuughts exactly! We are told that we will know them by their fruit. Rev you seem to be throwing around a lot of so called "rotten fruit" that apparently paul left laying all over the place, but I just haven't seen it in the scriptures so please do share these passages of rotten fruit with us.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

newgene87

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2012, 10:52:44 PM »

Okay. Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm not the one for confrontation: "a wise WILL hear, and will increase learning..." (Pro 1:5), so trust me, I am listening (actually reading) and taking everything in. To correct some speculation this is not a question on the Scriptures or the Word of God. Someone stated if you take away Paul you take away the New Testament...... what a slap in the face for the Gospels, James, Peter, John (the pillars of the Gospel); the ones who actually SAW and Walked with Jesus during His ministry. Matthews Gospel alone has truths throughout it and all of Jesus parables actually cover Life as we should live, in His name. So, no, Paul is Not THAT big. And that's my concern as well, Paul has been elevated to Jesus Himself - and that should not be the case. His writings have taken importance over Jesuss own words, the Torah, and the Prophets. But I'm taking all the insight in and came HERE for comments cause believe it or not, I LOVE this forum and everyone's insight and comments: and there is a lot of wisdom here. So instead of googling, or finding a pastor, why not the bible-truths forum :-D. People who seek the truth. So thanks for the insight. thanks to everyone for the words. For myself- I'll just uphold Jesus's words as chief in my learning and the scriptures. Im still a little shaken on Paul, from his mysterious name change from Saul (within a verse), his excessive talk of himself ("He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory...." John 7:17-18). And Paul spoke of himself a lot. Oh well, 1 Corinthians 13, Romans 8, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 2 are still GOLDEN writings so I'll just leave it to God and be knowledgeable in the Word. Thanks family :).
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2012, 11:16:49 PM »

Okay. Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm not the one for confrontation: "a wise WILL hear, and will increase learning..." (Pro 1:5), so trust me, I am listening (actually reading) and taking everything in. To correct some speculation this is not a question on the Scriptures or the Word of God. Someone stated if you take away Paul you take away the New Testament...... what a slap in the face for the Gospels, James, Peter, John (the pillars of the Gospel); the ones who actually SAW and Walked with Jesus during His ministry. Matthews Gospel alone has truths throughout it and all of Jesus parables actually cover Life as we should live, in His name. So, no, Paul is Not THAT big. And that's my concern as well, Paul has been elevated to Jesus Himself - and that should not be the case. His writings have taken importance over Jesuss own words, the Torah, and the Prophets. But I'm taking all the insight in and came HERE for comments cause believe it or not, I LOVE this forum and everyone's insight and comments: and there is a lot of wisdom here. So instead of googling, or finding a pastor, why not the bible-truths forum :-D. People who seek the truth. So thanks for the insight. thanks to everyone for the words. For myself- I'll just uphold Jesus's words as chief in my learning and the scriptures. Im still a little shaken on Paul, from his mysterious name change from Saul (within a verse), his excessive talk of himself ("He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory...." John 7:17-18). And Paul spoke of himself a lot. Oh well, 1 Corinthians 13, Romans 8, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 2 are still GOLDEN writings so I'll just leave it to God and be knowledgeable in the Word. Thanks family :).

What you do not understand is that Paul's words are  Jesus' words.

Jesus is the Word of God.  All the scriptures from Genesis through Revelation are Jesus' words.  The various human writers of the scriptures did so under the direct inspiration of God.  There is no such thing as free will.  The human writers wrote what God wanted them to write.

The scriptures are God's biography; they tell us about God.  There are no true contradictions in the scriptures.  They teach us the truths of God.  You can only understand the scriptures by the Spirit of God.  Paul's words are the truths of God along with the rest of the scriptures.  The scriptures are a seamless whole.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html

P.S.  newgene,  if you are sincerely interested in understanding, read the bible study from Ray in the above link.  A little ways down from the top is a section on how God does not lie, followed by a section on how God's word does not lie.  The entire study gives insight into the unity and simplicity of God's word.

If you are meant to understand, you will.  If not, we'll catch you later.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 11:47:15 PM by John from Kentucky »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2012, 11:46:21 PM »

Okay. Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm not the one for confrontation: "a wise WILL hear, and will increase learning..." (Pro 1:5), so trust me, I am listening (actually reading) and taking everything in. To correct some speculation this is not a question on the Scriptures or the Word of God. Someone stated if you take away Paul you take away the New Testament...... what a slap in the face for the Gospels, James, Peter, John (the pillars of the Gospel); the ones who actually SAW and Walked with Jesus during His ministry. Matthews Gospel alone has truths throughout it and all of Jesus parables actually cover Life as we should live, in His name. So, no, Paul is Not THAT big. And that's my concern as well, Paul has been elevated to Jesus Himself - and that should not be the case. His writings have taken importance over Jesuss own words, the Torah, and the Prophets. But I'm taking all the insight in and came HERE for comments cause believe it or not, I LOVE this forum and everyone's insight and comments: and there is a lot of wisdom here. So instead of googling, or finding a pastor, why not the bible-truths forum :-D. People who seek the truth. So thanks for the insight. thanks to everyone for the words. For myself- I'll just uphold Jesus's words as chief in my learning and the scriptures. Im still a little shaken on Paul, from his mysterious name change from Saul (within a verse), his excessive talk of himself ("He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory...." John 7:17-18). And Paul spoke of himself a lot. Oh well, 1 Corinthians 13, Romans 8, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 2 are still GOLDEN writings so I'll just leave it to God and be knowledgeable in the Word. Thanks family :).

I really feel like you did not read the links that were provided to you by anyone here.

Is it possible that Saul's "mysterious" name change had something to do with his radical change in heart in the blink of eye. From the worlds foremost sinner to maybe the greatest single champion for Jesus Christ? Just maybe it has to do with this?

His "excessive talk of himself?" Can you link these scriptures when making such accusations. I honestly want to see Paul seeking "his own glory."

But yea, those are golden writings aren't they?

You're welcome :)

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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2012, 11:54:18 PM »

I'm just curious, what does everyone think of a passage like this:

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

If Luke wrote Acts, and luke is writting here that Paul was filled with the holy spirit of God, why is this not good enough authority for people? Shouldn't this erase all doubt of Paul, when even Luke is saying that he was filled with the holy spirit? Unless people want to start saying that luke wasn't a real apostle too, or that we can't trust the word of God. Surely God doesn't fill those who are misleading His flock astray with the holy spirit. Filled is a strong word.

Peter also referencing paul in a similar mannor:

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

If you can't trust the Word of God, than what exactly are you building your foundation with/on?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 11:57:01 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Joel

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2012, 01:31:00 AM »

Paul was a follower of Jesus Christ to the utmost, just as the Lord said he would be, as it is recorded in The Acts of The Apostles and other writings.
Paul said this;
1st Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Those are words I take to heart in my ever day life, and apply to those I respect that share the Gospel in today's world.

Joel
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newgene87

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2012, 02:28:40 AM »

Okay, gotta reply to this..this was longer than I expected, but a few asked for scriptures, here they are.  Now, responding to...

His "excessive talk of himself?" Can you link these scriptures when making such accusations. I honestly want to see Paul seeking "his own glory."

Okay, now jus turn to any epistle you will see I, I, and I all throughout his epistles.... "I have written the more boldly unto you...that I should be the minister of Jesus... I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus...For I will not dare to speak of any of those thing... I have fully preached...so have I strived to preached" (Romans 15:15-24)...like really? You cant see the "I" I I in that. Paul puts HIMSELF right along "Christ Jesus" of the forefront in his letters. And quite frankly, it was a little disturbing. WAS now, cuz I'm beyond this, but I'm proving a point, Paul spoke of himself too much, when it's, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" (Matthew 24:14). And that should be Jesus Christ. Another example and this goes with what the lady said before, "I ROBBED other churches, taking wages to do you service. And when I was present..i was chargeable..." (2Cor 11:8). So it's okay to "take wages" and "rob" now?? Come on Paul. And says, "Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man...great my boldness...great my glorying: I am filled...I am..." (2Cor 7:2-4)....now, go and look up the Greek of corrupted, wrong and defraud: they all don't escaped Robbed or taking wages....next....."For I suppose I was in nothing behind the very chiefest apostles" (2Cor 11:5). Come on Paul, don't exalt yourself now. (kidding). Oh and another of Paul's statements, "that which I speak, I speak not after the Lord, but as it were IN FOLLY (foolishly), in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I WILL GLORY ALSO" (2Corinthians 11:17-18). Then, "I speak foolishly" in verse 21. Then he gets on a soap box, with some extra bricks for elevation and rants his experience in verses 24-28. ALL ABOUT HIM HIM HIM. Now there are your FEW scriptures proving the point of Him speaking of himself. Now OBVIOUSLY, I must keep in mind that these are merely true characteristics of a Letter. Yea yea, but JESUS said, those who claim themselves seek their own glory. When will the Very words of Jesus be upheld? Actually that entire chapter of 11 is about Paul.... What I'm getting at, he is the ONLY writer who uplifts himself. "Are they ministers of Christ? (I SPEAK AS A FOOL [his words now]) I AM MORE...." and all about what he's been through. [2Cor 11:23-28]. Paul actually goes on exalting himself, abasing himself and back and forth and AGAIN, if you don't see Paul is Speaking of himself than we have different bibles. And I'm a solely Rotherham, Youngs, and king james myself so I stay with a close to literal translation. It's almost as if Paul was writing to the Gentiles to follow him and read his epistles and that's the way to Christ (And those words almost certify the theory of Paul being the first pope....hmmm....he does sound popish). "be followers together of me..."(Phil 3:17) --- "Be ye followers of me, even as I also of Christ" (1Cor 11:1) --- "I beseech you, be ye followers of me" (1Cor 4:16).... Okay I know VERY little of cathlocism, and to each it's own, but this sounds like a pope. "Followers of Paul"???. And Jesus said, "Pick up your cross and to follow ME (Jesus)" Luke 9:23. Who is the TRUE shepherd we are to FOLLOW (John 10)?? Jus saying....Paul said words, JESUS Said. "for if i have boasted any thing to of you, i am not ashamed...I rejoice that I have confidence" (2Cor 7:14,16) Now I can finish this now; IM JUST SHOWING A FEW WRITINGS OF PAUL WHERE HE STATES HIMSELF, yes, "Excessively". For him to say follow me, multiple times, when Jesus says the same thing, its shaken me. I've started reading Rays paper on James and Paul. So give me time. So yea, there are the scriptures. 

And if I can't trust the word of God....how did Paul connect to the word of God???? I surely trust an believe Peter, James and Johns accounts and writing, I trust the gospels, the promises of the Torah, the prophets, even The mystery of the Book of the Revelations OF JESUS CHRIST. This was about Paul...and Jesus is before Paul in my faith. Actually Jesus teachings in the gospels are fairly different than Paul's epistles. So it's not like, without Paul, there is no scripture. Not true at all. The gospels and the writings of the Psalms is enough actually. But God has blessed with His word to be filled, as someone said before. And I receive that. Grace and peace to all.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2012, 02:30:06 AM »

Did Paul boast? 

When I read these scriptures at age 16 or so, I did not like Paul much either.  I kept reading them through my late teens and twenties, still no seeing what was there.  Recently, I read them again and saw something quite different.  There's more preceding these that give even more 'weight' to what I saw, but I'll start here.  The verses are from various translations because I looked at several to verify the meaning and could not always remember which one I had used previously.  The italics are my attempt at a paraphrase.  Maybe this will help.

2Co 11:16  I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.

Don't think of me as a fool.  But if you do, take what I'm saying as the words of a fool so I can boast a little too (like those mentioned in preceding verses).

2Co 11:17  That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

What I'm about to say, I don't say it like the Lord would have us talk, but foolishly like the boasting I've been talking about for two chapters now.

2Co 11:18  Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19  For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

Since others seem to glory in their flesh, I'm going to do it too--speaking as a fool.  You enjoy their boasting, being, of course, so very wise yourselves.   ;)

2Co 11:20  For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

You put up with it if a man brings you into bondage, or eats you for lunch, or takes from you, or exalts himself, or smacks you on the face.

2Co 11:21  I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

I'm talking to you about disparagement as if we had been the ones doing it.  But if they dared to do it, then let me do it too, speaking as a fool.
 
2Co 11:22  Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 

Did they tell you they were Hebrews?  Well, so am I (truly).  Are they Israelites?  Me too (truly).  Are they the seed of Abraham?  So am I (truly).   The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.  I am ALL these things, and you are not.  How's that for some disparaging?

2Co 11:23  Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;

Are they ministers of Christ?  (Remember...I'm speaking as a fool.  I've already called them false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ.   2Co 11:14,15 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.  It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness - whose consummation shall be according to their acts.

Well, I AM a minister of Christ doing an imitation of their boasting.

in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24  Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26  In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27  In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

I've been through an awful lot in the course of ministry.  If I'm being forced to 'glory', then I'll glory about my weaknesses.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.

Do you think it's a remote possibility that just perchance those false apostles, and fraudulent workers are?

2Co 11:32 In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas, the king, garrisoned the city of the Damascenes, wanting to arrest me, "
2Co 11:33 and I am lowered in a wicker basket through a window through the wall, and escaped his hands."

That time I got away.   ;)

2Co 12:1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord.

If I'm still being 'forced' to boast, though it's not easy to keep this up, let me tell about visions and revelations of the Lord.

2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
2Co 12:3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)
2Co 12:4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
2Co 12:5 Over such a one I shall be boasting; yet over myself I shall not be boasting, except in my infirmities.

Snatched away...got that?  Nothing to 'boast' about being 'snatched away'.  I'll speak of him as if he wasn't me.  The 'me' that's writing to you I won't boast about, except about my weakness.

2Co 12:6  For if I had a desire to take credit to myself, it would not be foolish, for I would be saying what is true: but I will not, for fear that I might seem to any man more than he sees me to be, or has word from me that I am.

If I ever had the desire to boast, I wouldn't be talking nonsense.  I'd be telling you what is true about these things.  But I won't boast for fear I would be making myself seem to be something a man can't tell by watching me or reading me.

2Co 12:7  And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.
2Co 12:8  And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.
2Co 12:9  And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.

The revelations were so great...got it?

2Co 12:10  So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.

2Co 12:11  I have been forced by you to become foolish, though it was right for my praise to have come from you: for in no way was I less than the chief of the Apostles, though I am nothing.

You've made me talk this way, acting like an idiot bragging on myself.  It's good to hear YOU say good things about me, however, because when I was with you, I was not less than the chief of the Apostles, even though I'm nothing.


Paul spoke as a fool--imitating those "false apostles and fraudulent workers" to differentiate himself (AND the Chief of the Apostles, for that matter) from them.  I have been around long enough to know that some 'universalists' think they are all the same.  If you think they are all the same, then you do not know what the gospel of the kingdom is--the same gospel preached (and lived) by Christ, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Jude.

Here's some required reading, I believe.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html  What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?

So did Paul boast?  Concerning himself, I think only when he was doing an imitation of those who did.   

« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 05:02:51 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Revilonivek

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2012, 02:42:12 AM »

Please don’t get upset. IF you knew me by now, you would know I question and have hard questions for everything. I feel that blind acceptance of everything said in the bible is impossible for me. I deal with the nagging concerns by talking about it. I understand fully that by questioning Paul calls for trouble. I am sorry for that. Like I said.. Once it’s addressed.. It’s done and over with and I can move on away from this subject. It’s just something I need to tackle down. I am sorry if you feel I’m a rotten fruit. I’m not. I will gladly bite my tongue and refrain from discussing this here if you want me to.

Why would Paul say that he did not learn or receive his gospel from the Apostles nor was he taught it by anyone or anything except from Jesus Christ himself? I assume through visions? He even said himself that if we believe another gospel from anyone else or angels, except for Paul’s gospel to call them accursed? Galatians 1:8-9

Paul says he got his gospel from Jesus Christ himself, not anyone, nor was he taught it. Galatians 1:11-17

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
 14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
 15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
 16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
 17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Why did the Jews Christians of Asia complain to Apostle James about Paul? The Jews Christians seems to recognize him- as they were Ephesians Jews.
 
Acts 21.
18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
 19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
 20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
 21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
 22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
 23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
 24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
 25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
 27And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
 28Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
 29(For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesians, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

We know that in other parts of the scriptures  that was at Ephesus for months, talking and persuading with them. He had to leave because he said their hearts were hardened.

If you read Acts 21-25, you would see that Paul when things at the synagogue did not go well.
Jews from asia got upset when they saw him.. Complained to James.. It caused an uproar. Paul tried to calm it down by identifying himself as a Jew and told his story of how he got renewed. He saw that the Jews christians  weren’t buying it.

 He sought for the protection of Romans by identifying himself as Roman, then they took him to high priest- and when the Pharissees and Saucceedes spoke with him. He realized they were Pharissees and Sauccedees, he identified himself as an Pharisee and son of a Pharisee..Then Pharissees and Sauccedes got trapped in an dispute of their own about Paul.   then sought Roman’ protection and left Jerusalem to governor’s castle. He lived in roman Providence for a while- probably a couple years before he was bound and later killed.

I have also noticed that in Paul’s epistles that Paul always had to defend himself that he was not lying when he shared his revelations. What caused him to be this way? Romans 9:1, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Galations 1:19-20: , 1 Timothy 2:7:
I know Paul the apostle was the one who established  and is the founder of the church in Esphesus. What I don’t get is why the  people at Espheus were clearly upset with Paul when they saw him when visiting James and the elders In Jerusalem? You can read it in Acts 21-25.

Why did Jesus say this to the Esphesians in Revelations?

Revelation 2
 1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

I could list more scriptures that caught my eye.. but bottom line is

Paul does certainly stir the pot. It does cause tension with some people. That is why I want to look into it and clear it up. For my peace of mind. If you guys want me to take it elsewhere. I will. Again I apologize.

Denise

 
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2012, 03:06:58 AM »

Did Paul boast? 

When I read these scriptures at age 16 or so, I did not like Paul much either.  I kept reading them through my late teens and twenties, still no seeing what was there.  Recently, I read them again and saw something quite different.  There's more preceding these that give even more 'weight' to what I saw, but I'll start here.  The verses are from various translations because I looked at several to verify the meaning and could not always remember which one I had used previously.  The italics are my attempt at a paraphrase.  Maybe this will help.

2Co 11:16  I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.

Don't think of me as a fool.  But if you do, take what I'm saying as the words of a fool so I can boast a little too (like those mentioned in preceding verses).

2Co 11:17  That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

What I'm about to say, I don't say it like the Lord would have us talk, but foolishly like the boasting I've been talking about for two chapters now.

2Co 11:18  Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19  For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

Since others seem to glory in their flesh, I'm going to do it too--speaking as a fool.  You enjoy their boasting, being, of course, so very wise yourselves.   ;)

2Co 11:20  For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

You put up with it if a man brings you into bondage, or eats you for lunch, or takes from you, or exalts himself, or smacks you on the face.

2Co 11:21  I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

I'm talking to you about disparagement as if we had been the ones doing it.  But if they dared to do it, then let me do it too, speaking as a fool.
 
2Co 11:22  Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

Did they tell you they were Hebrews?  Well, so am I (truly).  Are they Israelites?  Me too (truly).  Are they the seed of Abraham?  So am I (truly).   The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.

2Co 11:23  Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;

Are they ministers of Christ?  (Remember...I'm speaking as a fool.  I've already called them false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ.   2Co 11:14,15 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.  It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness - whose consummation shall be according to their acts.

Well, I AM a minister of Christ doing an imitation of their boasting.

in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24  Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26  In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27  In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

I've been through an awful lot in the course of ministry.  If I'm being forced to 'glory', then I'll glory about my weaknesses.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.

Do you think it's a remote possibility that just perchance those false apostles, and fraudulent workers are?

2Co 11:32 In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas, the king, garrisoned the city of the Damascenes, wanting to arrest me, "
2Co 11:33 and I am lowered in a wicker basket through a window through the wall, and escaped his hands."

That time I got away.   ;)

2Co 12:1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord.

If I'm still being 'forced' to boast, though it's not easy to keep this up, let me tell about visions and revelations of the Lord.

2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
2Co 12:3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)
2Co 12:4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
2Co 12:5 Over such a one I shall be boasting; yet over myself I shall not be boasting, except in my infirmities.

Snatched away...got that?  Nothing to 'boast' about being 'snatched away'.  I'll speak of him as if he wasn't me.  The 'me' that's writing to you I won't boast about, except in my weakness.

2Co 12:6  For if I had a desire to take credit to myself, it would not be foolish, for I would be saying what is true: but I will not, for fear that I might seem to any man more than he sees me to be, or has word from me that I am.

If I ever had the desire to boast, I wouldn't be talking nonsense.  I'd be telling you what is true about these things.  But I won't boast for fear I would be making myself seem to be something I am not.

2Co 12:7  And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.
2Co 12:8  And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.
2Co 12:9  And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.

The revelations were so great...got it?

2Co 12:10  So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.

2Co 12:11  I have been forced by you to become foolish, though it was right for my praise to have come from you: for in no way was I less than the chief of the Apostles, though I am nothing.

You've made me talk this way, acting like an idiot bragging on myself.  It's good to hear YOU say good things about me, however, because when I was with you, I was not less than the chief of the Apostles, even though I'm nothing.


Paul spoke as a fool--imitating those "false apostles and fraudulent workers" to differentiate himself from them.  I have been around long enough to know that some 'universalists' think they are all the same.  If you think they are all the same, then you do not know what the gospel of the kingdom is--the same gospel preached (and lived) by Christ, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Jude.

Here's some required reading, I believe.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html  What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?

So did Paul boast?  Concerning himself, I think only when he was doing an imitation of those who did.

Very beautifully put dave. Thank you for that.

To newgen, I have a huge problem with what you say here;

"Actually Jesus teachings in the gospels are fairly different than Paul's epistles. So it's not like, without Paul, there is no scripture. Not true at all. The gospels and the writings of the Psalms is enough actually."

First of all, I don't believe at all, for one second, that paul was preaching some other gospel other than the gospel that Jesus Christ too believed and preached. So to say they are fairly different is, in my opinion, far from the fact.

Second of all, to say that the gospels and the psalms are enough is to ignore; Psalm 119:160 The sum of Thy word [is] truth, And to the age [is] every judgment of Thy righteousness!

What we have in the scriptures presented to us now as the bible is exactly what God wants us to have and use as His complete Word. If we believe that God is fully in control that is.

Lastly, It seem as if you completely ignores the fact that the other apostles acknowledged paul as a man of Christ, a brother, an apostle. Luke, in writing acts, exclaims that paul was filled with the holy spirit and peter calls him a brother. Their authority alone is good for me, because I believe that they too, like paul, we're fully captives of Christ.

I don't know if there really is much else to say about this subject for me. I think ill just start going in circle from now one.

Anyway, thank you for the post dave.

God bless,

Alex
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 03:33:26 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2012, 03:12:17 AM »

Denise, Paul WAS a Jew, and a Pharisee (a sect of Judaism), and a Roman citizen.  Unless I'm misunderstanding, it's no different than me saying of my former life:  I am an American Christian and a Baptist and carry a British passport.  Those things are not mutually exclusive.  Besides that, he was very familiar with Greek culture (the predominant culture of the day), and an educated man.  That's why he could say those things.  They were TRUE.  He was all things to all men so that by all means he could reach some.  SOME said they were this or that.  Paul WAS what he said. 

The 'trouble' you talked about is core to the Gospel of the Kingdom.  That meeting ended in agreement!
     
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 04:18:35 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2012, 03:22:16 AM »

Dear Dennis,

I never called you a rotten fruit, just to clarify. I said; "Rev you seem to be throwing around a lot of so called "rotten fruit" that apparently paul left laying all over the place, but I just haven't seen it in the scriptures so please do share these passages of rotten fruit with us."

These rotten fruit were in reference to the things you were saying about paul without any support of scripture and the passages of rotten fruit were in reference to these passages that supposedly show us the real heretic that paul was.

It had nothing to do with YOU being a rotten fruit.

I am certainly amazed with the fact that someone can post scripture, specifically scripture showing that the people who knew Paul, spoke with him, preached along side him, believed firmly that he was a man of Christ and that these same scriptures go completely ignored by those who claims to doubt pauls authenticity. To me, that is greater than any verse of scripture you can quote from paul and INTERPRET YOURSELF and say, "you see, paul talked about himself in these versus, therefor he must be a heretic!"

At least with the versus where the other apostles speak of paul, there is no interpretation required, its just flat out statement that he was a "beloved brother" and a man "filled with the holy spirit."

Another issue is now we are pitting verses of scripture against one another, as if the scriptures contradict.

Either Paul was a beloved brother and a man filled with the holy spirit or paul was filled with vanity and arrogance and lifted himself up right beside Christ.To believe the latter, we have to interpret certain passages of scripture in such a way as to put them into direct opposition of the plain statements made by the other apostles. That also means we think peter and luke were just plain wrong. Can you see why I'm baffled as to this idea and reasoning? I mean, that's like saying you believe God's Word contradicts. Well maybe it's not God's Word.. maybe its the interpretation?

I guess I should let this one go.

Good luck with your struggle to understand this concept.

I have nothing but love towards you, even if in my moments of weakness my frustration comes through. For that, I apologize.

God bless,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Rene

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2012, 11:00:14 AM »

I believe it is a form of blasphemy to vehemently question the inspired writings of the Apostle Paul.   It is not a good thing to keep spewing this negative spirit.

René
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GaryK

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2012, 12:03:25 PM »

but bottom line is

Paul does certainly stir the pot. It does cause tension with some people. That is why I want to look into it Denise


Indeed Denise, Paul does certainly ‘stir the pot’ and I believe that was his mission set forth by God.   The whole word of God stirs the pot, and yes, too, the word of God causes tension……in the heart.  That isn’t a bad thing, that’s a good thing.   And just like what you and Gene are doing…the questioning…we’ve all done, also.   As for myself, I’ve never had a problem with Paul, he’s always been a glue and a hero for me when other writings were more questionable and hard to accept than Paul.    So I understand.   But as Ray repeats over and over again we all have begun to read “all the words”.  Don’t beat yourself for that.   Questioning is the precursory and that also comes from God.   This is what happens when one comes to a beginning of realizing something isn’t ‘right’ with what is taught in the church and a search begins for what is true.     How many times have you seen written on this forum and from Ray too that you’re not here by ‘accident’.   You question, you search, BAM!!.......you’re here.  But as Ray also teaches if the acceptance doesn’t so readily come to your heart, in part or whole, you can believe that is of plan also.........for a time.   I don’t believe anyone is judging hard for your questions, but, at some point and as Craig suggested the flag requires a gentle wind so as not to flap so wildly and a side is to be taken as to believing what is truth………..which I also believe is the full intent of every lesson, individually and collectively, of L. Ray Smith and Bible Truths.

gk
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Craig

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2012, 12:42:01 PM »

Denise I like questions, blind faith has lead multitudes to destruction.

Now your latest post, it is toooo long.  Keep it to one, no more than two questions, find the scriptures you have that back up your question or confuse you and give members a chance to respond.  Keep the discussion focused on one thing and after it is hashed out as well as it can, ask the second question and so on.

If I dived head first into your posts I would get seasick ;) Old age I guess....

Craig
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 01:53:12 PM by Craig »
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GaryK

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2012, 01:09:21 PM »



Why did Jesus say this to the Esphesians in Revelations?

Revelation 2
 1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Denise


As for your question, Ray addresses this here:   http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html


"WHERE IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?


The synagogue of Satan is located in the churches—in The Church!
"…you have tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev. 2:2.)
Where did the Ephesians try those false, lying, apostles? In some pagan temple or church down the street, or across town, or in some foreign land? Or maybe in the pagan religion of the Roman occupation? No, in the Church. Jesus Christ says:
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write… thou have tried them which say they are apostles [in the church of Ephesus], and are not" (Rev. 2:1a & 2b.)
Where did Jesus know these lying apostles? Why, in the Church, of course. Of what consequence would "lying apostles" of some pagan religion be to the churches of God in Asia?
And where did Jesus say the synagogue of Satan is located? Same place—in the Church:
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write… I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews [in the Smyrna church], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan… And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write… I will make them of the synagogue of Satan [in the Philadelphia church], and are not but do lie…" (Rev. 2:8 & 9; 3:7 & 9.)
All seven of the churches were well aware of many pagan gods and pagan religions. These seven cities in Asia were filled with MANY PAGAN GODS."


gk
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santikos

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2012, 05:08:08 PM »

After all the dust clears......Jesus is still the Savior of mankind
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2012, 06:41:17 PM »

After all the dust clears......Jesus is still the Savior of mankind

Two of the principal verses supporting the salvation of all mankind are found in Paul's writings in 1st Timothy.

By trying to discredit Paul, Satan and his messengers hope to discredit the truth of universal salvation, among other things.

Isn't it ironic that Satan attacks now, during the Passover season?  He killed Jesus once.  Now he attempts to do the same thing by raising doubts about the Word of God, Who is Jesus.
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