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Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?
Revilonivek:
Please don’t get upset. IF you knew me by now, you would know I question and have hard questions for everything. I feel that blind acceptance of everything said in the bible is impossible for me. I deal with the nagging concerns by talking about it. I understand fully that by questioning Paul calls for trouble. I am sorry for that. Like I said.. Once it’s addressed.. It’s done and over with and I can move on away from this subject. It’s just something I need to tackle down. I am sorry if you feel I’m a rotten fruit. I’m not. I will gladly bite my tongue and refrain from discussing this here if you want me to.
Why would Paul say that he did not learn or receive his gospel from the Apostles nor was he taught it by anyone or anything except from Jesus Christ himself? I assume through visions? He even said himself that if we believe another gospel from anyone else or angels, except for Paul’s gospel to call them accursed? Galatians 1:8-9
Paul says he got his gospel from Jesus Christ himself, not anyone, nor was he taught it. Galatians 1:11-17
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Why did the Jews Christians of Asia complain to Apostle James about Paul? The Jews Christians seems to recognize him- as they were Ephesians Jews.
Acts 21.
18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
27And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
28Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
29(For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesians, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
We know that in other parts of the scriptures that was at Ephesus for months, talking and persuading with them. He had to leave because he said their hearts were hardened.
If you read Acts 21-25, you would see that Paul when things at the synagogue did not go well.
Jews from asia got upset when they saw him.. Complained to James.. It caused an uproar. Paul tried to calm it down by identifying himself as a Jew and told his story of how he got renewed. He saw that the Jews christians weren’t buying it.
He sought for the protection of Romans by identifying himself as Roman, then they took him to high priest- and when the Pharissees and Saucceedes spoke with him. He realized they were Pharissees and Sauccedees, he identified himself as an Pharisee and son of a Pharisee..Then Pharissees and Sauccedes got trapped in an dispute of their own about Paul. then sought Roman’ protection and left Jerusalem to governor’s castle. He lived in roman Providence for a while- probably a couple years before he was bound and later killed.
I have also noticed that in Paul’s epistles that Paul always had to defend himself that he was not lying when he shared his revelations. What caused him to be this way? Romans 9:1, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Galations 1:19-20: , 1 Timothy 2:7:
I know Paul the apostle was the one who established and is the founder of the church in Esphesus. What I don’t get is why the people at Espheus were clearly upset with Paul when they saw him when visiting James and the elders In Jerusalem? You can read it in Acts 21-25.
Why did Jesus say this to the Esphesians in Revelations?
Revelation 2
1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
I could list more scriptures that caught my eye.. but bottom line is
Paul does certainly stir the pot. It does cause tension with some people. That is why I want to look into it and clear it up. For my peace of mind. If you guys want me to take it elsewhere. I will. Again I apologize.
Denise
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on April 05, 2012, 11:30:06 PM ---Did Paul boast?
When I read these scriptures at age 16 or so, I did not like Paul much either. I kept reading them through my late teens and twenties, still no seeing what was there. Recently, I read them again and saw something quite different. There's more preceding these that give even more 'weight' to what I saw, but I'll start here. The verses are from various translations because I looked at several to verify the meaning and could not always remember which one I had used previously. The italics are my attempt at a paraphrase. Maybe this will help.
2Co 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
Don't think of me as a fool. But if you do, take what I'm saying as the words of a fool so I can boast a little too (like those mentioned in preceding verses).
2Co 11:17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
What I'm about to say, I don't say it like the Lord would have us talk, but foolishly like the boasting I've been talking about for two chapters now.
2Co 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
Since others seem to glory in their flesh, I'm going to do it too--speaking as a fool. You enjoy their boasting, being, of course, so very wise yourselves. ;)
2Co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
You put up with it if a man brings you into bondage, or eats you for lunch, or takes from you, or exalts himself, or smacks you on the face.
2Co 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
I'm talking to you about disparagement as if we had been the ones doing it. But if they dared to do it, then let me do it too, speaking as a fool.
2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
Did they tell you they were Hebrews? Well, so am I (truly). Are they Israelites? Me too (truly). Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I (truly). The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.
2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;
Are they ministers of Christ? (Remember...I'm speaking as a fool. I've already called them false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14,15 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness - whose consummation shall be according to their acts.
Well, I AM a minister of Christ doing an imitation of their boasting.
in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
I've been through an awful lot in the course of ministry. If I'm being forced to 'glory', then I'll glory about my weaknesses.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.
Do you think it's a remote possibility that just perchance those false apostles, and fraudulent workers are?
2Co 11:32 In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas, the king, garrisoned the city of the Damascenes, wanting to arrest me, "
2Co 11:33 and I am lowered in a wicker basket through a window through the wall, and escaped his hands."
That time I got away. ;)
2Co 12:1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord.
If I'm still being 'forced' to boast, though it's not easy to keep this up, let me tell about visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
2Co 12:3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)
2Co 12:4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
2Co 12:5 Over such a one I shall be boasting; yet over myself I shall not be boasting, except in my infirmities.
Snatched away...got that? Nothing to 'boast' about being 'snatched away'. I'll speak of him as if he wasn't me. The 'me' that's writing to you I won't boast about, except in my weakness.
2Co 12:6 For if I had a desire to take credit to myself, it would not be foolish, for I would be saying what is true: but I will not, for fear that I might seem to any man more than he sees me to be, or has word from me that I am.
If I ever had the desire to boast, I wouldn't be talking nonsense. I'd be telling you what is true about these things. But I won't boast for fear I would be making myself seem to be something I am not.
2Co 12:7 And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.
2Co 12:8 And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.
The revelations were so great...got it?
2Co 12:10 So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.
2Co 12:11 I have been forced by you to become foolish, though it was right for my praise to have come from you: for in no way was I less than the chief of the Apostles, though I am nothing.
You've made me talk this way, acting like an idiot bragging on myself. It's good to hear YOU say good things about me, however, because when I was with you, I was not less than the chief of the Apostles, even though I'm nothing.
Paul spoke as a fool--imitating those "false apostles and fraudulent workers" to differentiate himself from them. I have been around long enough to know that some 'universalists' think they are all the same. If you think they are all the same, then you do not know what the gospel of the kingdom is--the same gospel preached (and lived) by Christ, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Jude.
Here's some required reading, I believe.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?
So did Paul boast? Concerning himself, I think only when he was doing an imitation of those who did.
--- End quote ---
Very beautifully put dave. Thank you for that.
To newgen, I have a huge problem with what you say here;
"Actually Jesus teachings in the gospels are fairly different than Paul's epistles. So it's not like, without Paul, there is no scripture. Not true at all. The gospels and the writings of the Psalms is enough actually."
First of all, I don't believe at all, for one second, that paul was preaching some other gospel other than the gospel that Jesus Christ too believed and preached. So to say they are fairly different is, in my opinion, far from the fact.
Second of all, to say that the gospels and the psalms are enough is to ignore; Psalm 119:160 The sum of Thy word [is] truth, And to the age [is] every judgment of Thy righteousness!
What we have in the scriptures presented to us now as the bible is exactly what God wants us to have and use as His complete Word. If we believe that God is fully in control that is.
Lastly, It seem as if you completely ignores the fact that the other apostles acknowledged paul as a man of Christ, a brother, an apostle. Luke, in writing acts, exclaims that paul was filled with the holy spirit and peter calls him a brother. Their authority alone is good for me, because I believe that they too, like paul, we're fully captives of Christ.
I don't know if there really is much else to say about this subject for me. I think ill just start going in circle from now one.
Anyway, thank you for the post dave.
God bless,
Alex
Dave in Tenn:
Denise, Paul WAS a Jew, and a Pharisee (a sect of Judaism), and a Roman citizen. Unless I'm misunderstanding, it's no different than me saying of my former life: I am an American Christian and a Baptist and carry a British passport. Those things are not mutually exclusive. Besides that, he was very familiar with Greek culture (the predominant culture of the day), and an educated man. That's why he could say those things. They were TRUE. He was all things to all men so that by all means he could reach some. SOME said they were this or that. Paul WAS what he said.
The 'trouble' you talked about is core to the Gospel of the Kingdom. That meeting ended in agreement!
lilitalienboi16:
Dear Dennis,
I never called you a rotten fruit, just to clarify. I said; "Rev you seem to be throwing around a lot of so called "rotten fruit" that apparently paul left laying all over the place, but I just haven't seen it in the scriptures so please do share these passages of rotten fruit with us."
These rotten fruit were in reference to the things you were saying about paul without any support of scripture and the passages of rotten fruit were in reference to these passages that supposedly show us the real heretic that paul was.
It had nothing to do with YOU being a rotten fruit.
I am certainly amazed with the fact that someone can post scripture, specifically scripture showing that the people who knew Paul, spoke with him, preached along side him, believed firmly that he was a man of Christ and that these same scriptures go completely ignored by those who claims to doubt pauls authenticity. To me, that is greater than any verse of scripture you can quote from paul and INTERPRET YOURSELF and say, "you see, paul talked about himself in these versus, therefor he must be a heretic!"
At least with the versus where the other apostles speak of paul, there is no interpretation required, its just flat out statement that he was a "beloved brother" and a man "filled with the holy spirit."
Another issue is now we are pitting verses of scripture against one another, as if the scriptures contradict.
Either Paul was a beloved brother and a man filled with the holy spirit or paul was filled with vanity and arrogance and lifted himself up right beside Christ.To believe the latter, we have to interpret certain passages of scripture in such a way as to put them into direct opposition of the plain statements made by the other apostles. That also means we think peter and luke were just plain wrong. Can you see why I'm baffled as to this idea and reasoning? I mean, that's like saying you believe God's Word contradicts. Well maybe it's not God's Word.. maybe its the interpretation?
I guess I should let this one go.
Good luck with your struggle to understand this concept.
I have nothing but love towards you, even if in my moments of weakness my frustration comes through. For that, I apologize.
God bless,
Alex
Rene:
I believe it is a form of blasphemy to vehemently question the inspired writings of the Apostle Paul. It is not a good thing to keep spewing this negative spirit.
René
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