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[Duane]

Oh!  The amount of typing, the Bible verses, the "logic", and FINALLY frustration --and the dreaded "h" word!  (heretic)
WHY can't they see my viewpoint and believe LIKE ME??

Some time ago Kat wrote a beautiful explanation and I would like to share it with everyone who gets tempted to be "suckered into" a theological debate!  NO MINDS ARE EVER CHANGED! WHY??


Hi Duane,

It is kind of a paradox, to know the truth, but for the most part unable to share it with family and friends. I see it now when you have a belief system, like you develop in the church, it is built brick by brick into a huge wall of how you understand things to be. Now if someone comes along and tells you that this or that belief/brick is wrong and must be removed, well that just wouldn't work. Each brick is held up by the other and they know that if one or a few were removed, well the whole wall is built one upon another, so the whole wall (of deception) would fall. They have spent a lot of time and effort building this wall and they like the comfort of it, many/most of their friends and family have a similar wall and they feel safe that so many others have one like theirs.

So when someone comes along and threatens the security of that wall, they are ready to fight to defend it, especially when it is something so unfamiliar, like the truth we know. Our bricks don't match or fit with their brick, they looks strange to them, so they resist them. They think we are the strange ones building a very strange wall and they want nothing to do with it. No, it's going to take God to knock down that wall of deception, just like He did with us, we can not do that for them. So as much as we would like to share the truth with this world, it's not going to happen. God has preordained a time when the world will learn righteousness and that is not until the next age.

For now we just need to be about sharpening our sword of truth, learning as much as we can, so when the time does come we will be able to stand with Christ to rescue this creation from darkness. Hope you liked my little analogy 

Kat 

[Extol]

Beautiful. 

[onelovedread]

"So as much as we would like to share the truth with this world, it's not going to happen."

 And even here on the forum, "as much as we would like to share the truth with each other, it's not always going to happen."  We will sometimes agree to disagree.  Perhaps more in our interpretation, than in our general beliefs. That's the result of us all being different. Ray so beautifully expressed it in Why Does God Love You:

God's family, God's plan, God's universe would not be complete without YOU! No one can take your place. There is one of you and there will always only be one of you. You need to think about this and meditate on it. Too many people feel that their life is of little if any value. That's not true, you are so incredibly important to God that Jesus Christ voluntarily laid down His life on the cross, not because your sins had some power over God's life; not to pay some divine debt that you owed God, not to appease the wrath of God, not because He had to die for you, but because GOD LOVES YOU, and He would do anything to prove His eternal love and devotion for HIS FAMILY AND CHILDREN, of whom you are totally unique.

[doug]

Very good observation Kat... on "No minds are ever changed! Why??"

I can imagine most have done that... trying to argue someone into the Kingdom.  I know I have tried many times and have   fallen flat on my face.  It just can't be done!  It's just an exercise in futility!  And sometimes causing resentment and anger on both sides.

Thanks for posting that Duane.

[santgem]

That doctrine. The doctrine you are grown up with. Unless God will touch you and work for you, no matter how intelligent and no matter how you know the scriptures from face to face it will not change the belief you've grown up with. That is the case of many that they stick to the old doctrine they believe with,  that no matter you explained to them the truth it will not work out.

Only God can change us from dark to light.

[doug]

That doctrine. The doctrine you are grown up with. Unless God will touch you and work for you, no matter how intelligent and no matter how you know the scriptures from face to face it will not change the belief you've grown up with. That is the case of many that they stick to the old doctrine they believe with,  that no matter you explained to them the truth it will not work out.

Only God can change us from dark to light.

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!

[ez2u]

you might not like me for this but we don't know the truth only a little bit.  the Holy Spirit is the teacher and He is quite able to do his job no matter where you are. I was researching the web and found Rays' page  stayed bury there for weeks, many things the Holy Spirit had been showing me came together i fell on my face and worshiper the Lord Jesus Christ   It was a turning point i can't go back  so with Gods grace we go more toward Him.

[Duane]

Ez2u--This is not an effort to "correct" you BUT and effort to refer you to further study as you kept referring to the Holy Spirit as "himself" rather than the spirit of God and Jesus, which is holy but makes it "itself".  See Eggi's explanantion of my post "holy Spirit--"he" or "it". 
Also..Ray has a lengthy article on the main web-page addressing "The Trinity" --fallacy.
It is true that we are all on different levels of understanding and stages of spiritual growth.
In Christ,
Duane

[acomplishedartis]

getting "suckered into" theological debates is like expecting a person whom is a beginner in maths to understand high level

maths equations, it's like expecting a person with poor physical condition to run beyond his possibilities, it's like expecting

clean water to come out of a fountain with dirty water...


First God must put the desire, and then; if we are the message, if we talk at the right time (God's timing), with the right message (the salvation of the whole world and it's many consequences) and the right intentions (out of love), maybe that is God using a fool to start influencing somebody's life from scratch.

 

[ez2u]

thanks Duane

[Vangie]

I'm a Pepper, you're a Pepper, wouldn't you like to be a Pepper too?  Okay, I'm dating myself, but that's what I thought when I saw your topic!  I know I'm late, but I thought we could lighten things up a bit!

[Duane]

I have had to READ my own post-- to LEARN-- what I ALREADY know!!  DUH!

I have taken it upon myself to become a self-described "know-it-all" on the topic of "hell"! 
I read and studied, THEN re-read and re-studied-- Julie Ferwerda's book "Raising Hell" --then
the same thing as above with Jackson Baer's book "What the Hell?--How Did We Get it So Wrong"! 

I felt pretty "armed and assured" when TRYING to share the GOOD NEWS with a stranger in a long clinic line; and, a relative!

NO WHERE!!  They LOVE to  believe;  and, feel SECURE IN BELIEVING what they have ALWAYS BELIEVED no matter what!

"When will I ev--er leeearn?   When will I eeeee-ver leeeearn!" ---Peter, Paul and (Saint) Mary  :-) 

[Shawn Fainn]

If I only could've read that when I first came here.. lol

Oh well, guess it's good for some of us to learn the hard way

[Gina]

I love this. 

The whole reason I'm here is because I was suckered in to a theological debate with my very good friend, who also happened to be an attorney and knew how to argue.   It was about 10 years ago and at a time when I was going to church.*  I was on the phone with my friend trying my best to answer her questions.  She was totally interrogating me about the church's teaching that God sends people to hell.  She was on the phone but she was in my face!  lol

And I couldn't answer her questions.

And I tossed and turned every night for about months agonizing over it thinking to myself, Well, I actually like what she's trying to convince me of, but what if I have "itching ears"?  What if I only like what I'm hearing because it sounds appealing?  You  know, because it would be kind of God if He wouldn't be angry with people to the point of fire and brimstone for ever and ... ever ...  and .... ever.

I was actually afraid to question the hell teaching.  I didn't agree with it, I just didn't want to go there and I thought well, if I have itching ears then I'm definitely going to hell!  One day I finally just said, screw it and googled "Is tithing scriptural"; I literally was holding my breath waiting for lightning to strike me (Oh, Lord, I don't mean to question you or your judgments...  lol.) and Ray's site was about the third from the top.  And here I am to this day.  And some of you shaking your heads. Hey, that's okay!  

If you know how to debate the right way -- which I'm still learning, you never know who you might get thinking.  But if the motive behind your debate is off (ego-driven) you may as well hang it up.



____________________
* It was great.  My daughter and I went there for three years and when we started attending the Pastor was starting the book of Genesis.  It took him literally three years to finish the Book of Geneses.  It is what God used to ready me for Ray's papers, none of which I would have understood nearly as well were it not for the teaching I received in church.  So I thank God for that pastor.) 

[Gina]

p.s.  The name of my friend just happens to be NADA.  ha!

[patmokgoko]

So true I feel so relieved to know that I am not alone, the more you study the more you realise the number of years you have believed the lie of the serpent.Take Mark Galli for example, in his book "God wins", he is emotional and plays the man rather than the ball.I stay in a country where "God wins" is available in almost all the book shops but Rob Bell's "Love wins" is unavailable.But I am comforted by Kat when he says that at the right time people will hunger for this truth-meantime let us equip ourselves.

[Joel]

A lot of people are still babes in Christ, and aren't ready for meat. Only God knows when they are ready to receive the strong meat and grow as they should.
Hebrews, 5:13-14  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are full of age, even those that that by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1st Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby. 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

Feed a baby meat before he is ready, he will either choke or spit it back out at you.

Joel