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Author Topic: Was Job a real person?  (Read 16715 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Was Job a real person?
« on: May 03, 2012, 02:28:27 AM »

Email is as follows:

Hi Ray,
  Do you believe the story of Job to be about a real person or and old testament parable?
 
God Bless,
Michael
 
Dear Michael:
Of course Job was a real person.  Job was the nephew of Joseph who came to Egypt
to save them from the seven years of famine.  Job was the son of Issachar (Gen. 46:13
& I Chron. 7:1). One of Job's three friends was Eliphaz the Temanite (Job 2:11) who
was the son of Esau (Gen. 36:10-12).  God compares Job's pride of building a great
stone building to that of God laying the foundation of the Earth.  Without going into great
etymological detail, suffice it to say that Khufu or Cheops (one of the Pharaohs of Egypt)
is non-other than our Job of the Scriptures
.  Job is the builder of the great pyramid of
Gaza, Egypt.
God be with you,
Ray

WOW! Did you guys know that? I had NO clue! That is awesome!! I wish ray would expound further on this one with the "etymological" detail or if anyone knows about this and has that information and could share I would greatly appreciate.

That is AMAZING! haha. How cool?

In Christ,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

John9362

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 03:46:16 AM »

WOW !! that is amazing, I never would have thought such a thing.  :o :o :o
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Kat

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 10:34:19 AM »


I remember that Ray brought this up at a conference, 'How We Got The Bible.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html --------------------

So we have - the Psalms, which is Psalms, Proverbs and Job.
Job is a poem.  I don’t know if you know that.  The 42 chapters of Job is a poem. 
Now Job does not appear to be a Jew or a Israelite.  It seems that he was a Pharaoh in Egypt.  But to pin down when he lived, I got 2000 BC all the way to 500. 

I personally think that he lived at about the time of Abraham, which would have been 1800 or 1900 BC.  I based that pretty much on the fact that 500 or 600 years later people were living to be 120 - 110 - 80 - 75 years old.  And 200 or 300 years earlier they were living to be 250 - 300 - 400 years old.  Job lived to be about 200, so he lived to about the age that people were living to at the time of Abraham.  I would probably put him about 1800 - 1900 BC.  And he apparently was one of the Pharaoh of Egypt, don’t know which one.
v
Now one of Job’s friends was okay, but the others God was angry with. 
So God Himself acknowledged not only that he sinned not by saying that, but that what Job had said was right. The only thing where Job wasn’t right was when God talked to him directly and said alright smart guy, where were you when I laid the corner stone of the earth (Job 38:6). 
Some historians (Dr. Haye was where I first heard about it) believe that God is saying this, “Where was thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?” (Job 38:4), because Job was a Pharaoh in Egypt. He maybe was Khufu, who built the great pyramid, the greatest one of them all. So God is saying to him, you think you are pretty smart, you built a little stone pyramid over here and you think you are hot stuff. Well, where were you when I laid the corner stone of the earth. Job was like, ‘oh yeah, there’s my pyramid and then there is the EARTH.’ 
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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eggi

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 05:19:27 PM »

Hi all,

I started thinking about this, how Ray has mentioned that the pyramids were built before the flood. And the flood didn't destroy them. Well, if Job built a pyramid, how did Job know about the flood then?

That is, if this verse refers to the flood of Noah:

Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood: (Job 22:16)

Or are we talking about some other pyramids?

God bless you,
Eirik
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Fester

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 10:51:07 PM »


I remember that Ray brought this up at a conference, 'How We Got The Bible.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html --------------------

..........  Now Job does not appear to be a Jew or a Israelite.  It seems that he was a Pharaoh in Egypt.  .............

........  And he apparently was one of the Pharaoh of Egypt, don’t know which one. .......

......   Some historians (Dr. Haye was where I first heard about it) believe that God is saying this, “Where was thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?” (Job 38:4), because Job was a Pharaoh in Egypt. .........   
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

This appears to be very speculative as no proof is presented.
 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 10:55:15 PM by Fester »
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Revilonivek

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 11:53:45 PM »

He could be a king or held a high position in his city. I don't think he was a pharoah. But then again, it could be possible. I think if he was a pharoah, the verses would have made it clear that he was. LIke they made it clear about Joseph. The scriptures were very vague about who he was except that he was very rich. I think many men in the bible were very rich or well known.

Just my two cents.

Denise
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Kat

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 12:27:24 AM »


If you think Ray is wrong about this you should send him an email and ask him about it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 12:41:29 AM »

I wonder if this question about Job is just a test of our ability to discern truth from error?

In the email Kat quoted, Ray says Job lived about the time of Abraham.

Yet, in his recent email, Ray says Job was a son of Issachar, which would make Job a great-great grandson of Abraham.

Obviously both statements cannot be true.  I don't know of even one scripture, much less two, that states Job was the Pharaoh Khufu of Egypt.  I am an amateur historian who loves the study of history.  I do not know any true historical record that identifies Job as Khufu.  So if there are no scriptural or secular records that proves Job's identity, how can it be said that Job and Khufu are one and the same?

Also, I attended the conference in Mobile in November 2009.  After listening to only a few minutes of Dr. Steger's speech, I knew he was a complete health nut and that several of his statements were unscriptural.  And yet, Dr. Steger's statements are published on the Forum.

Many of Ray's articles are just amazing in their scriptural explanations of the Truths of God----I especially think of the Lake of Fire series of articles---what a gift they are from God to His true Church.

So, I just wonder if other of the teachings, most notably those mentioned above, are tests sent from God to train us in sorting out truth from error?  To see if the errors will offend us so that we throw out the truths with the errors?  To test our loyalty to the real Truths and to train us in picking out the Pearls of Great Price?
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 03:01:18 AM »

Interesting statements from everyone. I'd love to hear more from this and perhaps someone with enough know how to shoot an email to ray asking him about it? Maybe we could all see the reply, that be great! :D
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gmik

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 02:04:46 PM »

wow....very interesting....but am somewhat stunned.  If Job was great great grandson of Abraham don't know how he could be a pharoah...but won't discount it either....
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 02:44:58 PM »

FYI:

Ray says he cannot at this time spend the weeks it would take to explain all this and asked that I remove
the email.
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Kat

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 02:58:49 PM »


From The American Institute of Pyramidology

SHEPHERD-PROPHETS
Consider these facts. The Pyramid was built in Egypt, notorious for its idolatry and polytheism. Yet Pharaoh Cheops became "arrogant towards the gods" during his reign and shut up the temples, cast out the images, and compelled even the priests to labor in the quarries. Herodotus says that the Pyramid was thirty years in building, the first ten years building prepatory works, with crews of 100,000 working on three-month shifts, and that after this thirty year period Cheops reverted to worship of the Egyptian gods. What strange power could cause such a radical thirty year break in the polytheistic habits of the Egyptians?

Herodotus extensively interviewed an Egyptian priest about the building of the pyramid and he attested that a noted stranger abode in Egypt at the time of Cheops, a shepherd, to whom rather than to Cheops the Egyptians attribute this edifice. The Egyptians call him "Philition" or "Philitis." Josephus also quotes Manetho, an Egyptian priest and scribe, who says there was a period in the Egyptian past when, by peaceable means, some "shepherd kings" had the Egyptian rulers "in their hands." Manetho said that some say they were Arabs. Seiss, with characteristically sound scholarship and reasoning, makes a case that the biblical Job was the Arabian who directed the Pharaoh in the building of the Great Pyramid. Seiss points out that the image of a pyramid is "unquestionably" the subject when God addresses Job out of the whirlwind in Job 38:

"Then the LORD answered Job from the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that makes my purpose unclear by saying things that are not true? 3 Be strong like a man! I will ask you questions, and you must answer me. 4 Where were you when I made the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off how big it should be? Surely you know! Who stretched a ruler across it? 6 What were the earth's foundations set on, or who put its cornerstone in place 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted with joy?"

Seiss says that since YHWH's object is to convince Job of his incompetency to judge of and understand Him, it is as if the Almighty is saying: You laid the foundations of the great structure in Egypt, but where were you when I laid the foundations of the far greater pyramid of the earth? You laid the measures of the pyramid in Egypt, but who laid the measures of the earth, and stretched the line upon it? You fastened down in sockets the foundations of the pyramid in Egypt, {the Great Pyramid is built on four sockets} but whereupon are the foundations of the earth fastened? You laid the pyramid's completing capstone amid songs and jubilations, but who laid the capstone of the earth when the celestial morning angels sand together, and all the heavenly sons of God shouted for joy?
v

Abraham was also a shepherd, like Job, wealthy with flocks and herds. How is it that he was brought to the attention of the pharaoh of Egypt and the King of Gerar in his travels? Was it simply that Sarah, his wife, was so pretty? The Jewish records say that Abraham was learned in the science of astrology and with his elaborate knowledge of the heavens and their meanings he attracted the attention of these kings. We know from the biblical record that God communicated with the shepherd Abraham many times, several times using the "stars" as a teaching vehicle. YHWH Himself directed Abraham's eyes toward the heavens, indirectly corroborating the Jewish oral tradition that says Abraham was a gifted astrologer:

Gen 15:5 "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them': and he said unto him, 'So shall thy seed be.'"

That the Pyramid was directed by shepherds guided by Divine wisdom. Such faith offers a sufficient explanation of what would otherwise be the dilemma posed by the advanced knowledge and technology exhibited by the Pyramid. It is with those who do not accept the Divine authorship of the Pyramid with whom the burden rests for a better explanation.

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mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 03:18:44 PM by Kat »
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longhorn

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2012, 09:56:12 PM »

My head just exploded for real.
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Revilonivek

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2012, 11:50:33 PM »

I have read something similar what Kat shared with on other websites as well. It is possible  and maybe that Job was Khufu but you have to admit that the evidence were vague as well in the bible and in history books.   Why didn't the bible use his actual name? Why didn't the bible say he was a pharoah? why not just say that? and even better, say he was a phoraoh of egypt? They were clear with Joseph. Why not Job?  it was clear that Khufu's family line and his parents were pharoahs and queens. He is a egyptian.  Khufu was the second pharaoh of the fourth dynasty.  Khufu had 24 children in total. 9 sons, 15 daughters. Bible said he had 20 children in total, 10 died, 10 surivived.  Did you know Belief in the sun God, Ra went on since the 2nd dynasty.  He worshipped the Sun god, Ra. Which means creator or creative-power.

Why did he build the pyramids? Why did his children build the pyramids if they believed in the One God of the Jews? You know how in the old testament, The jews hated anything that indicates idolatry or graven images. they would go to great extent to destroy it. Khufu didn't, his sons didn't. they went on to build more.

 much later, Ra was identified with atum, they believe Ra is the originator of all gods. In later dynatises, he was identified with Horus and so on. They believe all forms of life were created by Ra.

To the egyptians, the sun represented light, warmth, and growth. This made  the sun deity very important as the sun was seen as the ruler of all that he created. Of course they believed in one God once before believing in gods with their  later egyptian dynasties.

Again, it is possible that Job was khufu. It's a thought.

Denise
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Joel

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2012, 02:11:07 AM »

I have learned to put some things on a mental shelf, and sometimes God will shed more light over time.

Joel
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Kat

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2012, 09:38:59 AM »


Hi Denise,

Quote
Why didn't the bible use his actual name? Why didn't the bible say he was a pharoah? why not just say that? and even better, say he was a phoraoh of egypt? They were clear with Joseph. Why not Job?

Why did he build the pyramids? Why did his children build the pyramids if they believed in the One God of the Jews?

Yeah we all wish that the Scriptures had so much more information, but God gave us what He wanted it to be, it is what it is. He can teach us anything He wants us to know from what is there.

I think Ray threw out this bit of curious information about the possibility that Job was a Pharaoh as a side note. This is interesting, but not a profound truth by any means, so why all the fuss? To me I can't see whether it matters much either way.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Stacey

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2012, 11:43:15 AM »

IF Ray is 100% totally wrong about this it doesn't change even one tidbit about everything that he is 100% totally right about. It would only prove one thing; that he is still human like the rest of us.

I like the thought of Job being a Pharaoh but I'm not gonna go digging and investigating to the ends of the world trying to figure if Ray is right or wrong about any of this.

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Stacey

Rene

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2012, 01:06:58 PM »


I think Ray threw out this bit of curious information about the possibility that Job was a Pharaoh as a side note. This is interesting, but not a profound truth by any means, so why all the fuss? To me I can't see whether it matters much either way.


I totally agree.  This topic has, however, inspired me to read portions of the book of Job again, and I have found much delight in reading our Creator's response to Job in chapters 38-40. :)

René
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Revilonivek

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2012, 01:33:19 PM »


for me, I don't think he was a phorah, because for many people in the bible- they rarely fail to mention if they were a phroah or not and the dating is also way  off.

It was an important detail someone doesn't miss. It's like writing a book, writing a story, if you are going to write about a character. It would totally make the story make more sense if you say who the  character you write about, for example,

It would make alot of sense to identify who Job was. The bible say Job was already righteous about everything else  and faithful to God except for self-righteousness.

The first impression for me, when i read the story of job in the past, is that he was a wealthy man who lost everything and then gained everything back after he proved his faith in God and learned a thing or two. He was mocked by his religious friends, they thought he sinned against God, he suffered with leper, he lost his 10 children- he lost his home, etc. and then after a time, after he learned a thing or two, he gained it all back. 10 more children, he was healed of leper, and so on.. THat was it. They didn't really say anything about who Job was. The important details about job are missing except that he was wealthy.

I did say it's something to think about. I would believe Joseph to be one  of the phorahs, He was also descendent of Abraham and Jacob. Joseph is Abraham's great grandson as well.

Noah was born around 2700 BC- he died at 950 years old. The flood came when Noah was 600 years old.  which means The pyramids existed before the flood.

Abraham was born between 2000 Bc to 1850 BC.  That is way after like 500- 700 years after  Phorah Khufu reigned.

Pharoah Khufu reigned from 2589 B.C. to 2566B.C. in the 4th dynasty.

So that means Phaorah Khufu can't be Job, because Job is a descendent of Abraham  and Esau and Abrham hasn't been born yet.

We know  there are two jobab in the old testament. In one, in Genesis 36 says Jobab is a descendent of Esau and reigned for a time. You can read the whole chapter of 36 to make sense.  It also indicates Jobab is a descendent of Abraham as well and did say that they were very wealthy.

Genesis 36:

32 And Bela the son of Beor reigned in Edom: and the name of his city was Dinhabah.

33 And Bela died, and Jobab the son of Zerah of Bozrah reigned in his stead.

34 And Jobab died, and Husham of the land of Temani reigned in his stead.



Denise

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Extol

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Re: Was Job a real person?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2012, 02:38:12 PM »


 The important details about job are missing except that he was wealthy.


Hi Denise,

Job's identity isn't as important as the spiritual truths that are to be found in the book. If you're reading Job as a biography, then yes, you could say a lot of "important details" are missing. But it's not a historical biography, it's Holy Scripture written for our admonition. With that in mind, it's not that big a deal if Job was or wasn't a pharaoh. It's fun from the historian's viewpoint (History is one of my favorite subjects) to study and try to find out whether he was a pharaoh...but it's not very important from a spiritual viewpoint.

There is a lot we can take from the book of Job (like this: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4582.msg35248.html#msg35248) without knowing his "true identity."  8)
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