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[John from Kentucky]

"It seems the Great God doesn't agree with our 21st Century opinions about love, love, love everybody regardless of what they say or do."

JFK
I don't think I fully understand what you are stating here. Who are you referring to in the "our" (above). Are you referring to us forum members, humanity in general, christians...?
And what specific 21st century opinions?
Also, I am not sure what "the Great God doesn't agree..." means. Are you saying that the "our" referred to in your statement has disregarded what God says? Or is it that God has 'blinded their eyes' so as not to let them (us) understand?
Pardon me but I just want to fully understand your point.
Can you explain a little more about.
Thanks. I really appreciate your help.

You ask can I explain a little more about my statement?  No, I don't want to.  It's plain English.  You either get it or you don't.

What interested me was Ray's article (which I attached twice before) where he quoted the statement "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner", and Ray stated it was a totally unscriptural statement.  I agree.  Totally false statement, fit for spiritual babes.  Most of the great false church and apparently some here on the Forum believe that statement is true.  Which my quirky sense of humor finds funny.   

 

[onelovedread]

Thanks, JFK. You're entirely within your right to refuse to explain yourself. I respect that.
As to the the statement "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" isn't it a matter of context? C'mon now, God made the sinner and gave him the nature that sins. So if you say that God hates the sinner, WITHOUT QUALIFYING IT, then it makes no sense, as you're insinuating that God made his creation with a natural flaw, and then hates his creation for operating according to that natural flaw.
I'd prefer to say that God can not countenance sin and does not condone it. I think Ray is saying that God is not going to love man who sins and just dismisses it as his nature. And he made a provision - "But God only "commended" or "introduced" or "exhibited" that love ahead of time."
It seems to me to be less than being impeccable with words to say that He hates the man who commits the sin, without explaining fully.
It's great to be humorous. I love humor. But as I've been told, one has to have some regard for the differing levels of understanding of those who may read these posts.
I will ignore your comment - (which I attached twice before) since I have read the article over 5 times.  I thought the purpose of this forum was to discuss Ray's teachings.

[Gina]

I know exactly how you feel, Onelove.  Maybe this will help, Ray pointed out that God doesn't hate the way we hate.  His thoughts are not our thoughts.

I so despise the fact that I was made weak and must be chastised, beat into submission, and ground to powder. 

I wish it helped to read this verse....

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

But honestly, that doesn't make me feel one bit better.  It's like, Oh, great, so not just anyone was beat for my inquities but this perfect man.  But guess what, Gina?  You still get to be beat for your transgressions and you still get to be beat for things you didn't do.   It's all square circles to me.     

I don't know, just saying I know how you feel is all.

[Kat]

Here is a thought... how do you separate the sin from the sinner?

Pro 23:7  For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:

So would we say that God loves a person's body, but hates the sinful character/nature that the person has developed. I don't think so. God looks on the spirit/heart of an individual and while we are living as a carnal fleshly beast God abhors the sinnful creatures that we are... but He also knows what He will yet bring us to be. So God sees things not only as they are, but also as they will be.

Rom 4:17  ...even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.

Here is a section from the article 'Why Does God Love You?'

http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm ---------------------------

There is no Scripture which states that God hates everyone even though everyone sins:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)

However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins.  Here are some examples:

"And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them" (Leviticus 20:23)

"If ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments ...My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:14 & 30)

"For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD" (Deut. 18:12

"...all that do unrighteously are an abomination unto the LORD" (Deut. 25:16)

"They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations they provoked Him to anger...and when the LORD saw it, and He abhorred them..." (Deut. 32:16 & 19)

"The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: You hate all workers of iniquity..." (Psalm 5:5)

"...God is angry [Heb: 'enraged, abhorrence, abominable'] with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11)

"For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire, and... blesses the covetous, whom the LORD abhors" (Psalm 10:3)

"The Lord tries the righteous: but the wicked and him that loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5)

"When God heard this He was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel" (Psalm 78:59)

"For the froward [adverse, disobedient] is an abomination to the LORD" (Prov. 3:32)

"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination to Him... A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16 & 19)

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, God's curse be upon him" (I Cor. 16:22, Moffatt Translation)

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship of the world is enmity [hatred] with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is an enemy of God" (James 4:4)

So what is there about man that God loves? He hates man's sin and He hates the man who commits the sin. And that IS the way all human beings are. So what is left for God to love?

There is one Scripture that some might think contradicts the many Scriptures above stating that God hates sinners, and that verse is found in Rom. 5:8.

"But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Doesn't this verse prove that God does love us, even while we are continuing to sin? No, it doesn't. It may sound that way, but let's take a closer look.

CHRIST DIED FOR SINNERS AND FOR THEIR SINS

Christ died for sinners:

"God commends His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for US" (Rom. 5:?

Christ died for our sins:

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for OUR SINS according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3)

If Jesus "died for SINNERS," doesn't that prove that He loves sinners? No. He also "died for our SINS." If dying for sinners proves God's love for sinners, then likewise, dying for our sins would prove God's love for our sins, but God hates our sins. Most of us are familiar with this Scripture:

"But your iniquities [Heb: perversity, evil, sin] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear" (Isaiah 59:2)

There is a solution to why Christ died for US SINNERS, and OUR SINS -- two things which God hates.

Notice carefully, that Rom. 5:8 does not say that God loves sinners, or loves us while we are yet sinners. It says that God "commends His love toward us... while yet sinners."

"Commend" means to "introduce or exhibit." Yes, God "introduces" His love toward sinners while they are yet sinners, but He does not actually love them while they are sinning. God cannot both hate sinners (which many Scriptures attest to including those quoted above), and love sinners at the same time. God's Word does not contradict. God's love for humanity before the cross resided in the fact that all will be brought to repentance due to His workmanship, and God sees things not only as they are, but as they WILL BE. It was what God saw that man would BE, in the future after repentance, that He loved.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins.

But didn't God hate Esau before he was ever born?  Before he had done anything good or evil?

[Gina]

p.s.  I don't mean to be disrespectful to Ray or to God or anyone else.  I'm just saying what I feel, right or wrong.  It's how I feel.  I do believe there's a really good explanation for the things God does and I know better than to put Him on trial.

[John from Kentucky]

Thanks, JFK. You're entirely within your right to refuse to explain yourself. I respect that.
As to the the statement "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" isn't it a matter of context? C'mon now, God made the sinner and gave him the nature that sins. So if you say that God hates the sinner, WITHOUT QUALIFYING IT, then it makes no sense, as you're insinuating that God made his creation with a natural flaw, and then hates his creation for operating according to that natural flaw.
I'd prefer to say that God can not countenance sin and does not condone it. I think Ray is saying that God is not going to love man who sins and just dismisses it as his nature. And he made a provision - "But God only "commended" or "introduced" or "exhibited" that love ahead of time."
It seems to me to be less than being impeccable with words to say that He hates the man who commits the sin, without explaining fully.
It's great to be humorous. I love humor. But as I've been told, one has to have some regard for the differing levels of understanding of those who may read these posts.
I will ignore your comment - (which I attached twice before) since I have read the article over 5 times.  I thought the purpose of this forum was to discuss Ray's teachings.

Onelovedread,

    You are killing me.  This will be my last comment on this matter.

You do realize the the statement "God hates sin..." and that the statement is unscriptural---that came from Ray in his article?  Your disagreement is with Ray.  Please email him directly with your concerns.  Be sure and tell him that you think it's a matter of "context".  You do know what Ray thinks of context, context, context?   

The scriptures say that "Two cannot walk together unless they be agreed".  I agree with Ray's scriptural analysis in that article.  He just didn't give two scriptures but multiple scriptures, and he didn't list all the scriptures on that subject.  So, what is there to discuss?  Conversation kind of dried up.  On this subject, you need to go your way, and I'll go mine.  Take care.

John

[mharrell08]

However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins.

But didn't God hate Esau before he was ever born?  Before he had done anything good or evil

God did not like who Esau would become, it had nothing to do with what had yet to happen. God already knew everything that would happen in Esau's life.

[mharrell08]

God doesn't hate the way we as humans hate neither does he love the way we love. This discussion will never end because God does not fit in the limited usage we have for words such as 'love' and 'hate'. There's a reason the older languages had many variations of love because all love is not the same love.

If this discussion cannot move forward instead of members repeating themselves over and over again, it might be time for this thread to be locked. Hopefully it won't come to that and our maturity as members will win out. 


Marques

[onelovedread]

What were we arguing about again? 
I forget. And I am tired. JFK, you are my brother and I am sorry if  "I  am killing you." We're cool man. I get your point and I think we're saying the same thing. (As a matter of fact, Kat  quoted from the same part of Ray's paper that I did). Marques makes an excellent point about limited usage. No problem, everything is irie.
One love!

[John from Kentucky]

What were we arguing about again? 
I forget. And I am tired. JFK, you are my brother and I am sorry if  "I  am killing you." We're cool man. I get your point and I think we're saying the same thing. (As a matter of fact, Kat  quoted from the same part of Ray's paper that I did). Marques makes an excellent point about limited usage. No problem, everything is irie.
One love!

No problemo.  We cool.   

[Gina]

Irie

[mharrell08]

God doesn't hate the way we as humans hate neither does he love the way we love. This discussion will never end because God does not fit in the limited usage we have for words such as 'love' and 'hate'. There's a reason the older languages had many variations of love because all love is not the same love.

If this discussion cannot move forward instead of members repeating themselves over and over again, it might be time for this thread to be locked. Hopefully it won't come to that and our maturity as members will win out. 


Marques

Hey Marques,

How can we act mature?  We're not even born again yet.   

You tell me because you and OneLoveDread just have 

[Gina]

Verse 24 “When there was no depths, I was brought forth.” Now before I get into that, understand that terms that applied to us are applied to God. The Bible talks about men of power… does God have power? [Yes] Is the power that God possesses greater or lesser than the power men possesses? [Greater] Much greater, considerably greater, infinitesimally more greater. 

Does God have mercy? [Yes] Does He have more mercy than men? [Yes]

Does God have love? [Yes] Same love that we have, right, same amount? [No] You cannot compare the love that God has with the love that we have. Yes we have love and we kind of know what it means. But it can not be compared with the love that God has.

Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay. 

By that standard, God's hate for those He hates is infinitesimally greater.  Just sayin.

[mharrell08]

Verse 24 “When there was no depths, I was brought forth.” Now before I get into that, understand that terms that applied to us are applied to God. The Bible talks about men of power… does God have power? [Yes] Is the power that God possesses greater or lesser than the power men possesses? [Greater] Much greater, considerably greater, infinitesimally more greater. 

Does God have mercy? [Yes] Does He have more mercy than men? [Yes]

Does God have love? [Yes] Same love that we have, right, same amount? [No] You cannot compare the love that God has with the love that we have. Yes we have love and we kind of know what it means. But it can not be compared with the love that God has.

Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay. 

By that standard, God's hate for those He hates is infinitesimally greater.  Just sayin.

If God were that simple to understand, you would have a point. But no one here believes He is, so what do you want us to make of your comments?

[Gina]

I know!  It stumps me too!

[Gina]

But the good news is I'm told -- God eventually saves everyone so He obviously won't hate forever.  And with that, I'm out of this particular discussion.