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No free-will = Fatalism. Fatalism = negative thinking.

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24 Grams:
Hi guys,

Even though it appears I'm new here I've been around this website and this forum for a long time (account got deleted many years ago, so don't patronise me ;)).

The moment I read all of Ray's research I believed it.

This is especially true of the fact that we have no free will...this was obvious to me. But recently I've been having problems with this (or at least with my interpretation of it).

As you can tell by the title...free will seems to me like having a fatalistic approach to life. Of course none of us knows exactly what is going to happen to us in our individual lives but there is some insight. As Paul describes:

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." (Pet. 4:12-13)

This has made me somewhat pessimistic. It is my destiny to be miserable, after all I'm being tried and made to suffer.

Of course suffering is to make us strong and we should "rejoice", but this is not always the case. Recently a series of bad things have happened to me (almost on a consistent monthly basis). So much so, in fact, that I'm almost certain that God is asserting something to me here.

But what? I won't go into details...but circumstances are driving me away from God and every time I try to make amends I only get further.

I know for a fact, as human beings the more we believe we are in control of our lives the more happy we feel. The more we believe we are NOT in control of our lives the more hopeless we feel. At least this is the way for most people and for me too.

 

eggi:
Hi 24 grams,

The Scriptures say:

Rejoice always, (1 Thes 5:16)

and

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. (Phil 4:4)

This alone seems to say we should feel happy all the time. However, it is impossible that this is what Paul is trying to tell us. I believe Paul is pointing to the underlying faith and hope that we need to have. I'll be using an analogy from music. The faith and hope in which we rejoice always is the "pedal tone" which remains underlying in our lives as we experience times which are played in major or minor. The pedal tone remains the same even though the notes above it change from happy to sad and back to happy again.  :P

Paul says:

as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything. (2 Cor 6:10)

Clearly, he was often sorrowful and suffered a lot. So how could he say that he was sorrowful, yet always rejoicing? This is because of the Message of Joy that we all share. Our faith in the Lord and what He is doing and what He has done.

Both the Apostles and Jesus worried and suffered, and we too have and will have suffering and worries in our lives .

You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 1:6

But we can always rejoice, since despite all suffering, we always have the support of our Lord:

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. (2 Cor 8:9)

Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. (John 16:20)

...casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. 1 Pet 5:7

Now about fatalism: It is not your destiny to be "miserable". Your destiny is to NOT be miserable. Misery is just part of the path that we all need to walk on in order to arrive to the finish line. I can relate to what you say about a series of event that seem to drive you away from God. I can only pray for you and encourage you to rejoice in your "pedal tone" (your faith) and to think about what lies further ahead (not next month). I felt like this many times as well, but for me it helped to "zoom out" and take a look at the big picture. However I'm not going to pretend that there aren't hard times.

Keep the faith and pray for strength - I will pray for you!

God bless you,
Eirik

Gina:
Great response Eirik-- love it.

I can totally relate 24 grams.  I've gone through that a few times, but recently -- about 2 years ago it concerned one thing in my life big enough to upset the balance in other very important areas of my life and I started to feel suffocated and trapped, which gave way to anger.  Having absolutely no control over a thing or situation you want out of will definitely produce those feelings. 

I started to do what I would normally do at times like that when I got angry at God and was doing something along the lines of mocking Him, I guess you could say. 

Anger slipped into depression and then it dawned on me one day when I was feeling pretty good about things in the midst of it all, I was thanking God for something good -- happy that God made something that made me happy, like no one ever could. 

Then I realized that if I walked away from God in anger,  - for good, where was I going to go when I needed help and no one could ever come through?  Wouldn't I be praying to Him, then?  The saying there are no atheists in foxholes comes to mind. 

Then I started to remember that the just live by faith -- not by sight.  We don't live by the things we can see.  So I started to recount all the times that God answered some prayer of mine here or there and I slowly began to feel life was worth living again.

It takes time for sure.

I hope whatever you're going through, God will give you a reprieve -- long enough to catch your breath so you can at least praise him for it.  :)

All the best to you.

Gina:
... to praise him for the reprieve, not for the bad things -- is what I meant to say.

newgene87:
What a great topic 24 Grams. This hits home for me. Free Will has long passed my understanding but with all the "misery" that i'm going through NOW, it does seem like, "man, i know now i have no control over my life and it's events; LIFE SUCKS". gosh, this sucks  :P. But GREAT reply Eirik. I love music, so great comparison. i profess this verse in James as well as Romans 5:3, but i will share James. James starts off with a profound principle

"Count it all joy, when you fall into various trials; knowing the trying (testing) of your faith WORKS patience; BUT LET PATIENCE have perfect WORK..." (James 1:2-3) Theres so much wisdom in the ideology of "Patience working" in you. I say pray on that.  AFTER ALL "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise" (Hebrews 10:36). We have NEED of patience, yet Patience is a development and exercising of TESTED faith. Sign for that this life is a journey. And we need to keep the thought, that "He LEADS us in the paths of righteousness for HIS names sake: yea, though WE walk through the valley of the shadow of death..." Psalm 23)... that thought connects so well. This life is a journey that GOD MUST lead us in. Isaiah tells us that our righteousness are as filthy rags (Isa 64:), so God HAS TO LEAD us in the paths of righteousness; even though that will lead us to walk through valleys of the shadow of death... HE IS WITH US (ALSO, JESUS IS the Way, the Truth, and Life). So yes, the just (YOU) shall live by Faith, we are to deem it JOY when we fall (yea, FALL, no control, all-of-a-sudden, everyday fall) into trials, KNOW that the testing of your faith produces the very thing we have NEED of; which is PATIENCE. Trusting God in all things: for AFTER we have done the will of God...i like how the writer says "DONE" the will of God connected with "need of patience". Theres so much wisdom in that. so i understand on many levels. I am actively living in a very stressful situation, and it's testing me EVERY SINGLE hour of the day. But i'm praying and staying faithful to the principle that our tested faith is the working patience in us; that while we are in the will of God and pleasing Him in love: He will prove Himself. on that note; i'll end with: 

"Finally, my friends, keep your minds on whatever is true, pure, right, holy, friendly, and proper. Don't ever stop thinking about what is truly worthwhile and worthy of praise." (Phil 4:8 Contempary English Version). Stay faithful my friend. God is indeed with us :) :D ;D 8) :-* 8) ;D :D ;) :)

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