losing the holy spirit and eonian life

[Delandus]

Hello i am having trouble understanding this after reading rays paper about can we lose the eonian spirit and is once saved always save true.The paper states we can lose the spirit if we sin willingly.How can the chosen lose anything?The paper also presents the scripture involving Paul stating that he keeps his body under gaurd so he cant be disqualified.I am a bit confused as to how can the chosen beome disqualified if we are predestined......Someone please Help.

[Delandus]

Helloo can someone Help me?

[Rene]

Patience, young man.  Just because you are on the forum, does not mean everyone else is.

IMO, this bible lesson has to do with the spirit behind this scripture:

1 Cor. 10:12 - "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

It is true that those who God has chosen to be an Elect, will definitely be an Elect, however, only the Father and Jesus know for sure who they are.  We do not know and therefore we should never be so arrogant as to think we could not fall away.  It is a lesson in humility.

René

[Gina]

I totally agree with Rene. 

My response is a little longer. 

I don't know that I have the answer for you and I have questions too.  I have to go back a re-read that study.  I just remembered too that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption (did I say that right?).

It is my understanding that had anyone lost God's Holy Spirit they wouldn't even be so much as curious or worried about it in the least.  They would never search themselves and their hearts.  Never say to themselves, "Oh man, I'm on shaky ground, Oh God, help me out of this--this is too much temptation for me.  You gotta help me."  They wouldn't be saying any of that.

Below are some examples of what it looks like to NOT have God's holy spirit. 

Is this us:

Titus 1:16  They claim to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable,
disobedient, and disqualified to do anything good.

2 Timothy 3:8  Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth,
men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.

Do we consistently and vehemently oppose the truth? 

As Ray asked me rhetorically when I was concerned that I was one of those that God hated:

First he listed all these sins that some people consistently committed with NO regard for doing what is right.  Then he said:  "Gina, Do you do these things as a WAY OF LIFE?" 

In other words, do you hate the truth? 
Or, do you hate your sin? See?

Sin shall no longer have dominion over you, not that sin is completely eradicated from our lives. 

Getting saved is the hardest thing we'll ever go through.  It's a life-long process.  God knows this.  But it is serious business and that's why God is in control.   Even our obedience is a gift of God (for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose .. (Phil 2:13)). 

Even when I had trouble with Ray and some of his teachings, and I mean I was really on a downward spiral, Ray could see that I was searching for the truth, he never said that I'd lost God's Spirit.  Why?  Because as angry as I was, he knew that I was searching for the truth and didn't understand.  How?  Because I was still there asking and giving him boatloads of grief.  (Well, in my estimation it was boatloads; to him I was probably like a little gnat or something. hehe)

[Delandus]

Thank you all very much this really helped me a lot........much love God bless!

[Gina]

You're very welcome!

Here is that email I was telling you about:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13742.0.html

Craig:  This is an important addition to my new paper, so be sure to post it.

From: Ray

From: Nathaniel
Subject: God Hates Sinners

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Pastor Smith!

I read your newest article, and though I found it interesting, it
left a lot of questions in my mind. I was surprised it was not as
detailed as your other articles, usually you leave no wiggle room for
confusion and questions. In your article you stated "There is one
Scripture that some might think contradicts the many Scriptures above
stating that God hates sinners, and that verse is found in Rom. 5:8."

I was surprised, because I thought you would cover a verse that seems
to contradict God hating sinners even more than Rom. 5:8, and that's
Matt 5:44 which states "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless
them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
who despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

Throughout your other articles, you always point to the fact that God
would be a hypocrite to command us to love our enemies, and then hate
them by torturing them in an eternal hell. Now I have learned that God
will turn all to righteousness and it is in this capacity of how we
will be in which God loves us, and of course there is no eternal hell.
But Matt 5:44 seems to suggest that we are to love our enemies as they
are now. But the scriptures clearly state God hates sinners as they
are now.

Also what defines a sinner under the hatred of God? I was wondering
now if every time I sin (which is inevitable) am I now under the
hatred of God? Does God hate us all, even true overcomers, until we
are completely purged from all sin?

I know the Scriptures do not contradict, so I am trying to gain a
solid understanding of this topic.

Always in prayer for your health,
God Bless,

Nathaniel

Dear Nathaniel:  This is the problem that arises when I try to keep my papers short.
I get criticized for not covering all the bases, but mostly my criticisms are because
my papers are too long, so how can I win.  I edited ten pages out of this last paper
due to its length. As a result you are the second or third person who is having a
problem with this paper.  Let me give you the e-mail and my answer I gave my last
reader with this same question:


Hi, Ray,

Thank you for your recent article.

I have a question:  Does God hate me when I am tested and fail miserably?
What will He do to me?


Dear Gina:  No, Gina, God does not hate you when you are tested and fail.
And how can I say that. Many reasons, not the least of which are the teachings
of Paul where he says:

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign [to RULE your life in your
mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion [that is RULERSHIP,
complete control]over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

It all has to do with your motivation.  Is your desire to please God or to
sin and please yourself not just occasionally, but as a way of life.  Notice
this encouragement from Paul:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your
own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in
you, except ye be reprobates?

I don't think you are a "reprobate," Gina. A reprobate is one who is
morally unprincipled, not one who is striving to overcome sin.

Take a closer look at the Scriptures I presented which show the attitudes that God hates.
I will just give a few of the obvious ones, but I could go through every one of them:

They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods (Deut. 32:16).

the wicked and him that loves violence His soul hates " (Psalm 11:5)

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out (Lev. 20:23)

If ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments (Lev. 26:14).

You hate all workers of iniquity ..." (Psalm 5:5)   Etc., etc.

Do you do these things as a way of life, Gina?  Worship strange gods? love violence?
live like the wicked nations that God cast out? refuse to do all Gods commandments?

Are you a worker of iniquity?  I don't think so.  Listen Gina, once God calls you and you
accept that call then here is your spiritual condition from then on:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which
are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Hope this strengthens your faith, Gina.

And below is a short new paragraph that I am adding to my paper under the caption on
God hating sinners, which I hope will clarify this question that will undoubtedly come up
with others as well:

  A STARTLING REVELATION: GOD HATES SINNERS

There is no Scripture which states that God hates everyone even though everyone sins:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"  (Rom. 3:23).  However,
when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness,
God hates the sinner as well as his sins.  Here are some examples:

COMMENT:  And then continues my paper.......

PS  I also cover "Love your enemies" somewhere in my revised paper, but I'm not
quite sure where I put that right now.

Hope this helps you.

God be with you,

Ray

[Delandus]

I love all of you .....thanks For replying back to me.It has helped me so much.

[mickiel]

Interesting question, losing the Holy Spirit. I have not had that kind of confidence myself, to even consider myself as having it in the first place. I think it would be quite something to have Gods Spirit " Remain" in me, instead of  just visiting my consciousness from time to time.

Those of you who have it are quite fortunate and very blessed.

In Psalms 51:11 David ask God not to cast him away or take his Spirit from him. Which is an impression that God could do those things, if he saw it was needed. Which is perhaps another intresting question; what would bring about a need for him to do such a thing to a believer?

I mean as much as his Spirit is " Needed" by the believer, what would create a greater need for him to take it away?

[Delandus]

Wow very interesting topic

[mickiel]

Wow very interesting topic

Well I think its interesting for sure. I quess I am kind of developing on the issue, and not so sure on one way or the other. In Phil. 1:6," For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." I am sure there are scriptures that show a believer losing Gods Spirit is possible, but there are others that seem to me to hint that is not possible. Its like God starting something that he couldnot finish; in a sense. As if the maintaining of the Holy Spirit is then up to the human. Some things are up to us, in Romans 12:18 "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." But even these things " Depends" on things which we may not be able to control.

Are we then able to control the Spirit of God being in us? I am not suggesting this as if I have Gods Spirit, because I do not. That has not occured with me yet, his Spirit is only " With me", on occassion; so I am giving my views as one who is interested in Gods ways and means, and his truth, and who God is dealing with in his own manner. I speak only from that view, I am not a member of the elect and chosen one's. John said a man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven, in 3:27.

So it is an interesting notion, knowing that those given his Spirit have been sealed with a lock in heaven; is sin then so powerful that it can break a seal in heaven? I certainly hope its not.

But I know I need to keep looking into this question, I am not settled with it. I need more understanding on it for sure.

[Delandus]

The responses to my post helped me to see that only God and Jesus knows who is the elect,we do not.So it is best to stay humble and dependent on our  sovereign God,but since i read post you opened my eyes to something.The question is not  whether or not we can
Lose the holy spirit,but why and how long.This sounds like another one of those things involved in conforming us into his image and all things working For the good.God bless.

[santgem]

Do you do these things as a way of life, Gina?  Worship strange gods? love violence?
live like the wicked nations that God cast out? refuse to do all Gods commandments?


It is all there...If you do (SINS) as a way of life.......The answer to the question.

[onelovedread]

Delandus
I receive many answers and I get comfort and assurance from ROMANS 8, the entire chapter which to me is one of the deepest and most momentous in the scriptures. Read and reflect on Romans 7 and then continue to chapter 8. It helps me a lot and I pray it will give you some answers.
Onelove