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Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
Kat:
Hi David,
I can see that you are seeking and wanting to discuss these truths. I will tell you this about what I believe. I was 25 yrs in several churches, seeking to serve and obey, I really wanted to do God's will and put a lot of effort into it. But it was a hopeless thing, because I was striving to serve God with my own power, I had not yet been given the Holy Spirit or had my eyes opened. I 'happened' upon the BT site and was very intrigued and started reading, it's been 6 1/2 yrs and I have never looked back.
Ray was prepared and then sent out to teach and God fulfilled that mission in him very well. No, of course I do not believe that Ray had all the truth. But what truth he did have and taught was more than enough from which to build a solid foundation on, with his great use of multiple Scripture witnesses. I didn't just accept what Ray taught, I studied it in the Scriptures very much, I had been in church long enough and did not want to be deceived again.
But without a doubt it takes the Holy Spirit indwelling to see and understand these truths, that is bared out in all the hate emails that Ray received from people that did not understand.
I have just been discussing with Doug about those in the OT not being in the first resurrection, you can see it in the above posts. It's not that they did not have faith and didn't serve God good enough, the first resurrection is reserved for a very few, that are unworthy, have done nothing to earn and qualify for it. It is a gift pure and simple to a few "base things" of this world "that no man should glory/boost." These undeserving Elect are a few predestined to be prepared in this life time and used by God for HIS glory, but that want come till the next age. What better way than to show His glory than to bring the least likely to salvation in the first resurrection?
The church started when Jesus Christ sent His Holy Spirit to those first believers at Pentecost. He has been adding to those ever since, those He has predestined to be called out and chosen all the way up until now. I would not dare to say who is or is not and Elect, but when you are speaking with a person sometimes I feel a kindred spirit with them. So I just keep studing these things and seeking the truth as God sees fit to give it and I feel the Spirit of Truth indwelling will keep us on the right path :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
doug:
Kat - please, please do not think that I am trying to be argumentative in any way. I am not a teacher and I am not an arguer... I am just searching for the truth. Like I said, it will come to me eventually.
Now, to the verses you gave: "Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
What is meant by the phrase, "as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."? We read in Acts 1:8, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you." This was said just before His ascension and it speaks of what will be received in the future. Note that both Jn 7:39 and Acts 1:8 speak of that which is given/received after Christ's ascension/glorification. But Acts 1:8 makes it clear that it is "power". That tells us that it is the gifts from the Holy Spirit and it was fulfilled after Christ's ascension as we read in Acts 2:4, "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit moved them."
In other words Jn 7:39 is speaking of gifts from the Holy Spirit that were received on the day of Pentecost. When those gifts were received the result was that they spoke in tongues. In my opinion, the gifts from the Holy Spirit have nothing at all to do with salvation.
Now to John 16:7 - "Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that i go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.".
The Greek word translated "Comforter" in Jn 16:7 is also used in the following passages: Jn 14:16-18; Jn 14:26; Jn 15:26; & Jn 16:7-15. And in John 2:1 the word is Advocate.
Nowhere do we read that the Comforter gives eternal life. He does many things, but don't forget He comes to believers, i.e. those who are already converted, He does not come to convert them.
In my opinion, i believe there are several difficulties with the belief that comes with the understanding that one must have the Holy Spirit in order to be "saved" (which I believe we both agree that many are called but few are chosen) and He "was not given until Pentecost."
What was sent at Pentecost was the gifts from the Holy Spirit. Those gifts, in my opinion, had nothing to do with salvation. And at Pentecost we are told quite specifically in Acts 1 that what was received was "power" from the Holy Spirit which allowed them to speak in tongues, i.e. nothing to do with salvation.
Kat:
Hi Doug,
I am willing to discuss things as much as needed, as long as I feel someone is considering all of the Scriptures in proving a point.
--- Quote ---Note that both Jn 7:39 and Acts 1:8 speak of that which is given/received after Christ's ascension/glorification. But Acts 1:8 makes it clear that it is "power". That tells us that it is the gifts from the Holy Spirit and it was fulfilled after Christ's ascension as we read in Acts 2:4, "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit moved them."
In other words Jn 7:39 is speaking of gifts from the Holy Spirit that were received on the day of Pentecost. When those gifts were received the result was that they spoke in tongues. In my opinion, the gifts from the Holy Spirit have nothing at all to do with salvation.
--- End quote ---
I am trying to follow what you are saying here. The "gifts" that any Elect receive is to help one another in this walk.
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.
v. 4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
v. 5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
v. 6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
v. 7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
--- Quote ---Nowhere do we read that the Comforter gives eternal life. He does many things, but don't forget He comes to believers, i.e. those who are already converted, He does not come to convert them.
In my opinion, i believe there are several difficulties with the belief that comes with the understanding that one must have the Holy Spirit in order to be "saved" (which I believe we both agree that many are called but few are chosen) and He "was not given until Pentecost."
--- End quote ---
I trying to understand how you are seeing the Holy Spirit, you seem to be saying it is separate from God? The Holy Spirit is the power of God, as the Father and Christ are One and He gave all things to Christ, it is also the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit-Comforter, He is the "bread of life." ALL THINGS are through Jesus Christ.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.
v. 10 For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings.
John 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven.
v. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives LIFE to the world.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -------------------------------------------
On Pentecost, Jesus Christ came back to His disciples just as He said He would. He came back as the Comforter. Jesus said that they absolutely could NOT receive the Comforter until He went away. Why? Because Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER, but not in the flesh, but in THE SPIRIT!
It was on Pentecost that the first members of the Church of Christ received the Holy Spirit Comforter, just as He symbolized to them when He blew on them, showing that He Himself would come to them in spirit by the will of God. Now for the first time, His disciples were truly converted, baptized in Holy Spirit, possessing the mind of Christ, lead into all Truth (Jesus) by the Comforter—Jesus was NOW BUILDING HIS CHURCH!
"But the Comforter [Greek, parakletos, also called the Consoler, and in I John 2:1, Advocate in KJV, and Entreater in the CLNT] which IS the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).
The Advocate or Entreater in I John 2:1 IS the parakletos, The Comforter or Consoler of John 14:26 IS the parakletos,. and we are told that it is Jesus Christ Himself. Furthermore, the "Holy Spirit" that is said to come AS the Comforter is also Jesus Christ,
"Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF THE Lord [Jesus Christ] is, there is liberty" (II Cor. 3:17).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
whyisthatso:
Thank you Gina for the fine compliment earlier, but I am not "smart" in any way. Now if you had used the word "wise" as in wisdom, I might not be so quick to relent. What ever I know and understand is not mine. As for me, I am nothing and nobody. But, to be more specific if you must know. I am a 56 year old "grease monkee", aka mechanic (45 years), I work 12-15 hours everyday (literally), with an almost debilitating arthritic condition (thanks mom), I live with a mentally ill wife ( bipolar) .....who can be quite abusive at times, almost 30 years now, with 2 rebellious daughters (well 1 at least), eyeball in debt trying to support all of them ( I'm 56 ).........and lets see, oh I struggle with sexual lust ( as I believe most men do....yes, you guys too), and have had no intimacy with my wife for almost 20 years who hates my guts.........and, well I think you get the picture.
And I THANK GOD for ALL of it, every night and everyday. As for me making any predictions on line in the past about the future, all I can say is you either misread the subject matter or else you misunderstood it. I am no "prophet: ....per say. What else would you like to know Gina ? I am not ashamed of Christ.
doug:
--- Quote from: whyisthatso on May 31, 2012, 03:39:02 PM ---
It is my understanding that when Christ spoke of the first being last and the last first, He was not speaking of order, as in the Resurrection from the dead. But that He was speaking of position in the Kingdom. We have many scriptures that tell us that most (if not all) of the OT "saints" received God's Spirit (Christ), and will be there. But many (if not most) of them will not be "first" in terms of position. Even as much as they endured and went through, they are not as qualified to rule over this earth as Gods elect today and future, for the simple reason, among others, that they lived in a different age.|
--- End quote ---
David, I alluded to your comment in my comments about Hebrews 11 a couple posts back. I believe as you have suggested that it has something to do with "positions" and/or "rewards" and not only if or do not reign with Christ while on the earth or not.
It gets to be pretty complicated stuff until we blend all of the right scriptures relating to the matter.
doug
btw - I usually spell my name with a lower case "d" as there are at least two other Doug's on this forum.
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